Neelam Patel is on the show today! She’s a former and longtime tech executive who left the industry in her late 40’s and became a published author/poet and public speaker. Her specialty is embracing the “messiness of the middle”, which we, of course, talk a lot about. If you’re ready to embrace the danger of vulnerability, befriend your rage, and follow your curiosity, this episode is for you! The name of her book is “Burning it Down: Dancing in the Rubble” and it’s emotional and touching and as I read it, I felt SEEN. You’ll also hear me recite one of her poems in my stuffy, snotty voice as I begin to recover from Covid. Enjoy!
Neelam Patel is on the show today! She’s a former and longtime tech executive who left the industry in her late 40’s and became a published author/poet and public speaker. Her specialty is embracing the “messiness of the middle”, which we, of course, talk a lot about. If you’re ready to embrace the danger of vulnerability, befriend your rage, and follow your curiosity, this episode is for you! The name of her book is “Burning it Down: Dancing in the Rubble” and it’s emotional and touching and as I read it, I felt SEEN. You’ll also hear me recite one of her poems in my stuffy, snotty voice as I begin to recover from Covid. Enjoy!
Transcriptions available at www.iamthisage.com
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09RGBX1ZJ?linkCode=ogi&th=1&psc=1&tag=sofferscom1-20
01:24.44
Neelam Patel
hi Molly I'm Neelam I am an author a poet a dancer and I burned down my career of over 22 years in tech to do all of these things. And really enjoy them I am 47 years old. Thank you for having me.
01:46.51
jellyfishind
Hi Neelam thank you for coming welcome. Yeah welcome to the pod. so I want to just get sort of right into it because there's so many things I want to talk to you about today and especially after reading your book which by the way. . I got very emotional reading especially just just from the very start from the prologue like I finished the prologue and the like how to navigate this book before I even jped into any of the poetry and I was like I feel so seen.
02:25.18
Neelam Patel
I'm so glad to hear that Thank you for sharing that I would have loved to text. But.
02:25.28
jellyfishind
Yeah, yeah, I almost texted you and I was like I'm not going to bother her that where okay,, well okay I'm glad I'm telling you now. But anyway, so I have ah a lot of stuff I want to I want to cover. But at first I wanted to talk to you because. or I wanted to start with how in 2003 I think you were 28, you went to a career coach because you weren't enjoying your job at the time and you were working in tech and your coach suggested that you try a hobby and you went to a poetry open mic. And you liked it so much that you kept going back every month but you kept it a secret and I don't often go this far back. But I'm so curious. Why keep it a secret.
03:14.59
Neelam Patel
It's such a good question because it's so odd to me now now my instinctives just invite everyone I know and you know make an event out of it and get drinks after and all the fun things that come with doing something like that and back then it. I Think it's one of those things where you know how when you're driving riding in a cab and you tell your cab driver something that maybe you haven't told anyone else there's this or bartender I think we've all done it I don't want to speak on every ones we have I think there's something that the. Anonymity makes the courage easier that it's harder to expose yourself or something about yourself to someone you know because the stakes are higher.
04:00.38
jellyfishind
Oh my god I relate to that so much I say that a lot because I do storytelling like I get up on stages and do like true personal narrative storytelling and I used to host an open a storytelling open mic and. People often think that I'm like this very open book like I don't have any trouble being vulnerable I'm not shy at all and I'm like no no, no, no, no, that's not it at all getting up on a stage for me. There's like enough of a separation between me and the audience that it's ah it's a lot easier to be vulnerable. And be open than it is to just be like 1 on 1 face to face with somebody I care about and know it's so much harder. So that makes a lot of sense. okay so you are working your quote unquote regular job in tech while you were exploring.
04:43.94
Neelam Patel
Yep.
04:52.87
jellyfishind
This more creative side you were producing one woman poetry shows you were acting in plays touring in plays and as you were developing and aligning your personal life with your values. you also became more productive at work and in turn.
05:00.22
Neelam Patel
And.
05:12.22
jellyfishind
You began to receive accolades in the form of promotions. This is a little bit of an aside. but I'm often preaching about how everything is connected like the way that we treat one part of our body affects how we feel on the rest of our body and similarly when we strengthen one part of our lives all the other parts of our lives.
05:20.92
Neelam Patel
So.
05:32.80
jellyfishind
Often feel that same strength and that same positive effect. So even though you didn't want to be in this job Anymore. You were still excelling and you were you were you were still excelling while you were better taking care of all these other parts of your life and I. Just wanted to like I feel like that's such a like what a great example of how everything is connected. Y'all so take care we're we're whole dynamic. You know three dimensional beings. So, or multidimensional. But that said,, just just because you're excelling it. Something doesn't mean.
06:04.11
Neelam Patel
So.
06:09.80
jellyfishind
That you have to keep doing that thing. and so there you were you were still working in corporate tech. but you wanted to leave your job. But as you said they kept sweetening the deal with promotions which made it harder to leave somewhere in there. Between the shows and the poetry and perhaps becoming more confident in your professional role. and just experiencing life in general you began to find your voice can you explain what finding your voice meant to you at that time.
06:44.82
Neelam Patel
And sure I would say it was a slow finding of the voice. It wasn't a snap of the fingers everything that you described was the pathway towards that I would say the simple way to think about that for me is that the more acting classes I took that came with. Improvisation classes. It came with doing things that were uncomfortable. It came with staying present. Even if you don't know all the details and then the information it's helping the project move along in a mode of uncertainty. It's ah, a lot of things that were from the theater world. Where when you're left with less I would say informational data driven knowledge and more your instincts your presence of mind your let me just talk about what's popping in my head right now and taking that risk comes with wait I think that. That might have been me authentically not me trying to be the corporate person who goes to work and does the corporate thing you know I know this is a podcast you can't see me but I'm like acting like robotic like and not in a bad way but just like this is the lines in which I operate that I thought was a day job and the more I sort of. Just became improvisational in my theater life the more that spilled over that vitality like you I couldn't stop it I remember thinking like whoa like who is that you know like as if Alexa was talking like I'm like whoa whose voice was that and that was my voice.
08:16.12
jellyfishind
Wow You have a poem that's entitled the danger of Vulnerability. which for yet I feel the same way. when I just the title like it gives me like chills and I get emotional Because. Vulnerability is such a huge high value of mine and it's also so so scary for me for most people probably I struggle with it A lot. can you talk about your own struggles with it and how you've moved through the fear of vulnerability and like speaking your voice.
08:51.16
Neelam Patel
And I'm still moving through it like the image I have is like it's a big river between me and the truth you know? And yeah I put my heart on my sleeve with this book I'm really proud of it I think that I'm so glad you asked me this question I think vulnerability is so hard. Hear inspirational quotes like you know living your dream is or like living in a state of caution and not acting big is is more painful than like living your dream you know and it's like is it though you know because that vulnerability fear is not just in my head and I think. Once I made that distinction like I'm not making it up like I really believe I'm going to lose all my friends if I become an artist right? I really believe that right? But then if I'm like oh don't do that. Just follow your dreams and it doesn't work. You have to actually look at that monster and even feed it. And let it kind of breathe and be like oh this is what that is and let it be and it's I think that's what makes it so scary that that there is for me like I shame my shame like I'm like well I'm ashamed that I feel this way you know and there was one book that helped me a lot. . Stephen Pressfield who wrote a movie called bag legend of bag of rams he wrote the book before became a movie. It wrote an awesome book called, the war of art. It applies to anyone trying to do anything with their lives. It doesn't have to be an artist but there was 1 chapter in there and he was. And I had the audiobook so I felt like he was just telling me about his secrets in my ear and he said yeah, you actually might lose some friends that might actually happen and I was like oh no, one's ever just accepted that that could be a reality and then move on I'm like oh okay, you know I'm not. Saying that that that monster is solved but looking at it and accepting it and saying this is true. Maybe some of it is true or even if it isn't logically true it's true in my heart let's say the worst case scenario, I lose all my friends every single han that is my friend I lose them all then it's like okay okay. Just if yeah, just imagine that scenario, right? Like if if you feed the monster in that way. Somehow you start remembering your capacity to be competent. You know and move through so that's where I'm at. But.
11:13.22
jellyfishind
Ah.
11:19.40
jellyfishind
I I Just like thought of so many things because I'm also in this transitional period and, yeah I think something that I'm struggling with that just I just thought of was you were talking was. Even just talking about like oh this is what I'm doing now like I make podcasts. I'm starting a business like just even saying those words feels really really scary and vulnerable because I'm like well what is everyone going to think who knows me as something completely different. Are they going to believe me are they gonna think I'm silly and I'm stupid and it's never going to work and. Somebody said to me recently like yeah that never goes Away. It's just learning how to live with that. You know like it never the the fear of what people are thinking of you or if you're going to lose your friends because of it or if people are going to think that you're you know, silly and ridiculous or whatever it is. Like that that fear doesn't go away but it's you yeah you just you just learn how to sort of you just learn how to live with it and I think probably that is hearing your voice louder than that voice. Maybe I don't know.
12:28.21
Neelam Patel
And yeah, yeah I like that because there's something about like that urge that calling to do the thing is so much stronger sometimes than the other voice not every day but overall in general right? and then the other thing I'm starting to come to terms with is.
12:39.20
jellyfishind
Yeah, yeah.
12:43.56
Neelam Patel
Is that voice in my head not the fear of what other people think but my own shame that I'm putting on other people because it's too much for me to handle in my brain right now. So am I thinking that oh like I would you give up ah a day job in in tech like right now I mean I could get a tech job. You know.
12:50.37
jellyfishind
Had.
12:59.14
jellyfishind
.
13:01.95
Neelam Patel
Pretty quickly probably right now. So that seems really sillyy. So if I'm worried about that fear then maybe that's me that there's a version of Neelam inside of me like I'm never 1 person right? There's 13000000 nelems inside of me and 1 of them is. Wondering about like what the f are you doing right now.
13:20.20
jellyfishind
Yeah, yes, okay so we're the same because I or we're we're similar because I'm the same I'm like well I've been offered a couple of jobs in my old industry and wine and I keep saying no what is wrong with me.
13:24.56
Neelam Patel
Yeah.
13:33.90
Neelam Patel
ah yeah, yeah I mean eventually it feels more freeing. You're just like yeah I said no to that look at me, you know, but yeah, it's it's a struggle.
13:38.30
jellyfishind
So it's this It is a struggle, what else changed for you once you recognized like the strength of owning your voice or like what sort of new opportunities if anything started to appear for you.
13:59.28
Neelam Patel
I think the main thing that I learned was to slow down and listen which then made whatever was around become more visible. So I don't know that new opportunities came up is that my eyes were looking different looking at the world differently so I was slowing down so much that you know I didn't have a plan I don't necessarily recommend this for everyone. You know, but what I was going to do when I decided not to look for another job and a day job I mean and. Remember I posted on Facebook I said hey I'm taking this leap of faith don't know what I'm doing but I'm not going to go into Linkedin and look for a new job like I would instinctively and I think I was declaring it to the world but I was mostly declaring to myself like like we're taking a left her here. We're not going to do not right now you know and . Someone posted as a comment that hey I did something similar like ten years ago do you want to have a call and I did hear some advice before that if someone asked for a call take the call always take the call so I was like yes and I you know I don't know her that well she's a friend of mine and she and I talked for 45 minutes and then at the end of it. She's like oh there's this book program. Maybe you should look at it. That's where I started writing my book and so like that opportunity which is how I then constructed my book. That's the first thing I did I would say after I decided to not look for job and I would say that that you know I put my. Out there by being vulnerable and honest like hey I'm doing this one thing I know one piece of data that is I'm not looking for and I don't have more data than that led to a conversation led to her spontaneously saying this. We didn't talk about writing a book like that hadn't come up yet and there was the book. So I I don't know that new opportunities came up. I just kind of was looking my eyes were directed differently because I didn't have the day job all day long.
15:50.40
jellyfishind
, yeah I Love that perspective like those opportunities were always there. You just were now like aware of them. You were your eyes were open and you were open to the opportunities whereas maybe before they were always there. But. You weren't necessarily looking for it or so you know we we see what we're looking for? Yeah yeah,, what? What do you?? What sort of factors. Do you think sort of helped you to hone your voice and to.
16:14.40
Neelam Patel
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly yeah.
16:27.42
jellyfishind
Be open to these opportunities.
16:32.11
Neelam Patel
Curiosity I think just like I think it's a really. Good question because what is that weirdo instinct of mind to constantly jump in and be like I'm going to do a one show my poetry and I've taken 1 acting fuss you know, but there is something that maybe it's the artist in me. Maybe it's just this strong voice in me that like wants to create wants to make something. And I've been all these years trying to put that in a box put it in a closet like okay I do my one woman shows and I rehearse on weekends and nights and you know I like try to figure out but the more you feed your desire the more your desire grows so I would say you know thanks for letting me work through that answer I would say. I don't know if it was just me. It was you know every step I took then returned with another curiosity or I would meet someone right? like I would take an I would then take an acting club meet someone who said oh there's these auditions or there's this you know learning the language of what world I was in as I was doing it.
17:27.68
jellyfishind
I Love that.
17:40.33
Neelam Patel
I Think I don't have a problem being a beginner and so I think that also led to where I am and still does, I mean at my age I don't think a lot of people spend all day doing things that they have almost no expertise in doing like starting a business learning how to be a motivational speaker. You know. So but that's for me like my whole life is triggering right? I wake up in the morning I'm like okay you know, let's look at the chaos. But I thrive in that you know even in my day jobs when there was a bit of ambiguity, I was able to create some structure some structure around that or understand the next step forward. That was my sweet spot. So in some ways I'm doing the same thing except my ambiguity is it's okay, your life. You know like a bigger one.
18:21.56
jellyfishind
Oh my God Yeah, your day is really similar to mine I feel like we should hang.
18:24.62
Neelam Patel
So hey I'm I'm glad I'm there.
18:29.95
jellyfishind
, so maybe we already covered this a little bit but I want to maybe just get a little bit deeper. I think it's 1 thing to like realize your voice and your perspective have value and it's another to practice speaking it. and especially so I'm speaking for myself right now like especially for those of us who aren't necessarily used to advocating for ourselves. So then when we do it. It sounds like messy. It might sound overly aggressive even if it isn't aggressive at all and just like simply because we're not used to doing it. So as you were sort of in this space realizing that you have this voice and it is valuable. Can you talk about sort of a time or maybe just in general like you know when I know you kind of said you're still working on it like but like what what you do like when you feel unsure about expressing yourself how you move through it.
19:29.10
Neelam Patel
So yeah,, if I don't just jp over it like I guess on the worst case scenario you jp over it. You don't speak up you stay silent. The best thing one can do in that case is talk about it and make a big deal out of it like I didn't speak up that didn't happen I didn't speak up because then.
19:35.42
jellyfishind
.
19:47.55
Neelam Patel
What I'm doing is disassociating that actual lived experience with what I want to create next time it kind of creates a little bit of a you know, like like for example, I'll make a very simple example and I know I'm sticking with the like what if you don't speak up but I think that's that's where it all starts and so like let's say you're at a restaurant. Okay. Having food with your friend and they're like you want to order the guac or not order the guac and then all of a sudden all this thoughts are coming in your head but in your heart you Desire. You've slowed down enough that you understand what your desires are but you're not yet at the place of speaking up for them and you're like I want the guac but you never say it the whole time. And then it comes and it goes and then you're like oh you know it was an amazing dinner but that was weird I didn't say that if you can talk about that weird experience with a friend a therapist somebody. You know, not just journal about it Honestly, there's something about being witnessed. And being curious with someone else and I think for me, the reason is because I shame myself so much like what are you a baby. You can't speak up or oh my God You can always have this problem where you just want things. You don't say it probably because of some issue with your like what agriculture you know and then it just gets degraded into this. Acceptance of this is how it is so I would say speak it speak it out loud and then the next time it happens your body will automatically be like oh like someone says what you're at a different party and they're like oh what toppings Do you want on your pizza right? And then you're already in a place to be like oh this is a part where I'm just going to concede with whatever everyone's doing. Ah, that's what's happening right Now. So It's this self-talk and then you're like and then you experiment what would it be like if I say you know what? I'm not interested in the pineapple on the pizza I would rather have you know my vegan pepperoni or whatever it is what happens you know and I think that that's the slowness. The slowness is detecting. When it happens and it's almost like I can give you other examples. But I think that's the mean, that's the main meat of it. The structure of it.
21:42.95
jellyfishind
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and even the talking it out loud with another person because it's almost like especially with like a therapist or something because it's almost like once we're validated like we need some like acknowledging and validating. Like we're not crazy a lot of people go through this but there are ways to work through it and to grow and to get better at speaking up and advocating for ourselves. But I think that no problem.
22:06.44
Neelam Patel
And I would ask that for a second if you don't mind sorry to interrupt you I think it even more than there is ways around it or what's the next step. It's just sitting with it like my it's so interesting because when I give speak and like when I give talks or someone's like oh I see you have a lot of poetry about rage. What's your opinion on managing rage and I have no opinions on anything except that whatever it is we sit with it and we talk about it and as soon as it's talkable. Then we can look at it and I think the problem is we can't look at it because I can't when I'm shaming myself so the value for me, you know is is just the witnessing. That very what seems passive like you know like I basically pay my therapist to sit there and not tell me to do anything you know and that actually is where because otherwise I'm shame to well you know the whole before and after of healing like well we're all in the middle. There is no after. By the way we're all here in the middle. There's no light at the end of the tunnel if. There's light is right now and so my whole perspective because that's what's worked for me is let's just sit with the confusion and look at it from this angle from that angle and then feel like at the end of the talk. You might be like we didn't do anything. We didn't even roleplay we didn't do anything. But your body has registered something new because you've looked at it you have accepted it instead of I'm sorry I'm going on and on it's just the shame is so real for me that that's been the most powerful for me.
23:30.17
jellyfishind
No I'm so glad that you're talking about this and I actually have a gazillion questions about shame that I want to get to in a second. so I want to dive deeper into that. but really fast. You brought up the rage part and I also I know you have ah, another poem that talks about.
23:42.21
Neelam Patel
Yeah.
23:49.13
jellyfishind
Rage as an everyday ally and I am so curious to know more about what you think about that. especially because like just like I'm not great at advocating for myself all the time I'm really. Uncomfortable when I feel angry and I just had an experience just the other day with this like where I'm like oftentimes I have I'm so uncomfortable with it and it's so foreign to me that I have to make a conscious choice to get angry so there will be a circstance or a circstance the other day where I was like all right. I think this is the type of circstance that actually warrants anger. So I'm going to try that on and see how it feels I'm just going to try it and I you know I did and this doesn't happen often. But when I do it almost always feels like it doesn't fit you know like it's too big for my body or whatever like it doesn't. Work. It's so uncomfortable and then I get I start to rinate There's definitely some shame around it and I I'm struggling with what is the difference like am I is it just that. It's so uncomfortable and it's so foreign to me so it feels terrible or is it truly. That it's not my authentic self and I can you know respond in a more authentic way and I'm not you know I'm still trying to like work this out. sorry sorry
25:03.78
Neelam Patel
Yeah, yeah, that's it. That's a major dance and what a big question. Wow so that's not a really quick find 1 no I love it. I great is my bus. Not my best topic. My favorite topic because I'm working through it too and just so everyone knows what's. Where I'm coming from when I used to get mad I used to get extra nice to the person cook for the person make sure they could not see the stains of anger on my face so then nothing was getting communicated I was continuing to feel straight like a stranger to the person and to myself and there's not actual closeness. We end up staying as lonely as we started. And so rage for me now is like my best friend and so 1 comment 1 idea I have is simply that why can't the range just be and then just let that experience be and have nothing to do with how you react to somebody so.
25:58.75
jellyfishind
, and.
26:02.60
Neelam Patel
Because I think that might be the step forward before you get angry at someone or express because the whole the problem about you know anger is like an everyday ally is after you've processed some of it. So then you can say where you stand so I have 2 things to say about this? Okay, okay so one is like.
26:15.65
jellyfishind
Okay.
26:21.71
Neelam Patel
Who cares? if it's if it's valid or not or outsized right? like oh someone cut me off I feel like murdering them. Oh my god did I just say the word murder on a podcast. Yes I did and so I think I think it's like well it might be outside because it triggered something else. Maybe you were in a car accident. You never really got mad at that person who almost killed you or you know. And I know I, what seem like extreme examples but this is what people live we live these lives where we we just shut off our shame. You know as soon as we see the flame we're like oh turn that off turn it off turn it off and we're like turn it off at all costs and so when we do that. Now we have this rage that was shimmering down there. You know I still think of rage is a positive thing. So I think of shimmer and so like it's still in there and then something you know helps blow that lid off a little bit so what I call there's another poem in there about I think it's called red like the color red and it's it's basically like. Let's say your soul is a home. You have a rage room and you just don't open that whether you open the door or not that's your choice I'm not saying it's good to feel rage or bad to feel rage I just know that when I feel my rage I feel less depressed less anxious less alone. But I'm not saying it's good or bad but it's there and so if you were to take. Stepped into there I I rage in my shower and so that's my like rage shower and so if you can really go there like really like sometimes when you're angry you think of the specific ways you're going to murder someone and I think the part I think the part that gets confusing is like after that happens you're like. Did I just kill someone are they okay do I need to check on them. It is this very confusing thing that is even hard for me to admit that that's my confusion like did I hurt them and meanwhile I'm just having a shower and they're like going on with their day right? but that's the but I think that actually I'm like stepping into a new place now which is because. They get to just go on with their day and I'm still raging that rage is actually releasing me and so the second thing I want to say besides like you have you know why can't that just be a rage thing and then later you can deal with your life like why can't that be a cleansing like I should actually like a shower hello and so then the next. I wanted to say is 1 time because I was you know working on my poetry I had an incident where it actually came in handy I had a cover designer for my book which I'd love my cover but at one point I was like where why is he doing all this stuff is not what I asked for you know and I was like you know what what? if I just opened that rage door a little bit more so in my. Privacy I was like what is he stupid like rude things I would never say this to this very talented smart creative I'm so lucky I got assigned to him designer so both things are true. How can we hold that duality like this person is amazing I want them in my life I like.
29:11.11
Neelam Patel
Love them as a designer and also what the f did you just do? Why Did you do that idiot you know and so like if I so I had a little private private moment and then after that moment I went and like crafted an email and I was like my rage is just telling me my needs are not met. That's all.
29:26.94
jellyfishind
And.
29:30.14
Neelam Patel
And so then I was like oh okay and then I showed up wrote an email and said hey here are the things I'm seeing and here's the things I'm not seeing yet and by the way here's what I'm seeing and here's what I'm not seeing you know and then he wrote back. He's like that's the most specific email I've ever got my entire career and so I was like cracking up. Like I was like and of course the first thing I thought was thank you rage because I was able to get clear. Otherwise I think let's say past neelam like myself who I I haven't yet worked on rage got in a situation like that with this designer I would have wrote a very confusing email I would have been less. Clear and I might have gotten somewhere by accident but I wanted to but not because I directed it and and back to what you're saying I think was quite lovely where you say it? You said something about like how sometimes assertiveness just feels like aggression you know and it's like because a sort of.
30:09.40
jellyfishind
Yeah.
30:22.93
Neelam Patel
Aggression are in the same family they live in the same room by the way so that rage room also holds your assertiveness and so it feels the same because they remind you of each other right, but you know as I don't know as women a lot of times you know, taking up any space feels like you're squashing people.
30:37.33
jellyfishind
Yeah yep, Thank you for that answer and there's I think for me what I'm taking from this like the biggest piece that I'm taking from this is you know we I think a lot of people talk about like how there's space between like the stimulus the stimulus. And the reaction and like that's something that's a concept that I that I fully understand and embrace and I'm always very like slow to react, but that within that space like it's okay to feel all the feelings. Whatever it is that like that's the space to do it. And then you decide to react and then you can actually like be assertive and it's okay because you it's you're informed by your rage does that make sense.
31:22.85
Neelam Patel
Yeah I feel like my rage is like the sister I always want like you're not like an actual sister but like you want this person advocating for you right? And that's your rage. She's and I'm gonna make her a she right now and she's just like wait. We wanted this now you got this. That's not what we wanted. You know? And yeah, then you. To decide what you want to do with that and how you want to deal with that. But I think and as you are speaking I was thinking about the risk of not doing it meanwhile at first I said you know it doesn't matter which side you pick like you can stay and just be aware that you're not getting grateful but I found that I just live a lonelier life. When I don't experience my own rage because then not only do I not to get to not get to see myself but no one else gets to see myself and that's just the desire to be seen as you are.
32:10.49
jellyfishind
Yes, yes, 100% so yes because that's ah that was the other piece that I was actually going to say as you were talking I'm like but whatever I say however I say it if I don't say anything at all like but I always want to be seen at the end of the day like I want to be heard and so it's.
32:17.23
Neelam Patel
.
32:30.00
jellyfishind
You know exactly like not expressing it not expressing the emotions or whatever the feeling is then you risk not actually feeling seen and that's a lot of time. Oh I was going to say that's a lot of times I think then that carries into shame.
32:36.47
Neelam Patel
Yeah, yeah, and I think that but.
32:47.50
jellyfishind
And like well why didn't I speak up and how come I didn't and yeah.
32:49.38
Neelam Patel
Yeah, it. It keeps your and all that shame keeps your anger down and I was I was going to say that this reminds me of what you were saying but how dangerous vulnerability is.. It's like what if instead of my private anger I like got rageful at my designer like I've now you know ruined this relationship Now. What. But you know a really strong and healthy relationship could handle that and then there's the apology and then I don't know I don't know what happens I haven't been in that situation. But I think that in your head you're like I might sever This relationship feels so scary because then you'll be alone in the world and yet then you're on the other side where you are. Alone in the world like you still are alone and so I think it's just scary no matter what it's a very dangerous thing. Vulnerability.
33:32.46
jellyfishind
Yeah, and the most important I think like in the same shame Anger Vein I Struggle a lot with. Perfectionism and I'm just like beginning to sort of understand and connect how much shame is buried in the idea of like having to show up perfectly all the time and so then when I don't show up perfectly aligned with. My values then I ruminate in the shame that like I could have done things differently or better I said could have said something more I could have been more assertive. Whatever it is and like that's where I get stuck for a while. So like I just like sit in this like puddle of shame. So. I Don't know if you can answer this but how do you both like fuck it up and go to sleep at night knowing that you did the best that you could.
34:26.65
Neelam Patel
Yeah, that's just a good question and it's a question I ask myself to but like again like first of all having someone to talk to about it so it makes it less like a shame cycle. You know Rene Brown talks about that. But you know, but what we're here to I feel like what we're here to talk about is how hard that is.
34:39.21
jellyfishind
, yeah.
34:44.67
Neelam Patel
Pick up the phone when you're in the middle of a shame cycle and like no this is not an easy task and so what do you do? If you haven't gotten yourself to go pick up phone and and call someone and I think that the question is I don't have an answer I have a question for myself too. It's like how do I get to a place of being amused by myself like just like amused. But look in that situation. You just said the word puddle and it made me smile a little like oh look like like it's like if you think not that we're you know animals. But like if you think of a little dog who like ended up in, in a mud puddle right? They have the beautiful wisdom of not being ah, having to carry that shame. But. Ended up taking a wrong step and slipping and falling. They get to see what the mud feels like see what it feels like to not step in the mud and just be be and so how do we get to a place where you can crack up at yourself. You know be like that was that was a hot mess you know or just be like that. Hot mess that was just a lot of different signals I was getting I was getting a signal to stop and I was getting a signal to go and that's really hard because now I'm stuck and then and then you stop and you look at the signal to stop and you look at the signal to go what was behind the signal to go what was behind the signal stuff. And think it goes back to that same answer before just making it lookable. You know, look atable and I think that that helps but like but when you're spiraling and you're in that shame cycle and I said hey let's just look at it Molly, you'd be like I don't want to look at it. You know you might step and whatever. but I think it's just noticing that you're. And negative feedback loop like I am saying something negative that's making my mind go negative. That's been going somewhere else negative and if we can see that cycle going like who how can I like how can I take a break from that or find a different place inside of me that's fulfilling. I have no answer except I keep experimenting with different things and.
36:35.65
jellyfishind
Yeah, yeah, me too I Also think it's interesting like in something to think about like I'm so willing to let so many other people off the hook you know like when they don't show up perfectly but I can't do that for myself and, so that's something I'm also like.
36:46.88
Neelam Patel
So in.
36:52.49
Neelam Patel
I it is interesting I think that's an interesting question. Others have asked me that so I really want to think about that like why is it that we have this memory from like 1986 I did something and you're like ah every time something reminds me of that I'm like why is my skin getting hot. Why is I remembering you know I don't think I am.
36:55.19
jellyfishind
Yeah.
37:05.89
jellyfishind
Ah, yeah.
37:10.74
Neelam Patel
Here to scrub every inch of shame out of my body but I do want to live a ah fuller life and if there is shame that's stopping me like the perfectionism and not letting me enjoy myself because I think that that it really does steal the joy then you know it's worth looking at? yeah.
37:24.89
jellyfishind
, yeah, yeah, it's it's fun work. so okay, so you got laid off in the beginning of the pandemic. congratulations. So did I.
37:35.60
Neelam Patel
Yeah, yeah, okay, and mine was october of 2020 when was yours. Okay, yeah, you kicked it off and.
37:42.59
jellyfishind
, oh mine was like April of Twenty Twenty yeah it was right? But oh yeah, I did so instead of, instead you said this earlier like instead of jumping into finding another similar job. . You went on Linkedin and you're like I'm not going to do this anymore and you paused and you got curious and I'm curious I'm curious curiosity is something I talk about a lot It's like a huge like probably my number one value. what did what did curious sort of mean and look like to you in this context.
38:17.92
Neelam Patel
It was really hard. Oh go ahead.
38:19.76
jellyfishind
And how did it sorry I I was just going to add another question. How did it differ from what you used to do.
38:26.96
Neelam Patel
Yeah, it was very deeply introspective like I think a lot of people who experienced covid in this way might have also experienced and it was staying curious I mean I would say it got really slow like I turned everything down because I had this way of like. Getting my day job done and then going on a trip and like I just had so many ways of keeping myself occupied entertained and living what looked like a really happy excited life but was I fulfilled was not. You know a question I have really spent a lot of time looking at and so when i. When I got curious I got curious about every vibration inside of my body like oh do I want tea now or do I want coffee am I just saying I want coffee I know this sounds like really painful. But I'm like who what like what do you want you know and without getting mad just listening and then if I get frustrated then I get frustrated like oh then you got frustrated, you know. And at some point I think I realized that I'm like oh this was the right speed the whole like flow was I was going too fast. You know I was just making it up like oh you know, kind of like now there's this criticism of people go on the on Twitter to find out what their opinion is on things right. And it's like if we put every if we silence everything including your to do list on your job then you do have to ask yourself like well what do I think you know which is why I have so many thoughts about rage and shame and like because that's that's the place that I live in right now.
40:00.88
jellyfishind
Yeah, that's the curiosity, the curious space the curiosity space. so you mentioned earlier you met a woman who had sort of a similar trajectory direct chat Trajectory That's a hard word to say to yours.
40:04.65
Neelam Patel
Who.
40:16.38
Neelam Patel
It is.
40:20.35
jellyfishind
And, she had written a book and it inspired you to go sign up for this like book writing program at Georgetown called the creators institute First of all just out of I'm curious is that like a graduate program or is it like a.
40:29.87
Neelam Patel
So no, it's like ah it's anyone who sees themselves or desires to be someone who creates something anything you can sign up. It took a 30 minute interview we have Eric Coster who runs it and at the end of it.
40:40.89
jellyfishind
Cool.
40:48.74
Neelam Patel
He says if you haven't you know an idea enough to start baking.
40:51.40
jellyfishind
Yeah, cool. so at this point in time. What doubts did you have and how did you challenge them.
41:04.40
Neelam Patel
When I signed up for the book creators program. The doubt I had was I feel like I'm telling the same story in different ways now that I think about it because it's a common theme of like what do you really desire is is really feels like the theme here and . What happened was when I got on a call with him I had decided to write a nonfiction book about how poetry is making it into the mainstream. This is Preamanda Gorman I just had this strong intuition that it's time people are resonating with my work and it's because I write kind of storytelling poems and. Not esoteric you know and I just thought that's what's happening and then I started so I would say the doubt I had was just picking something that I thought would be a cool idea and it would be and I can make myself interested in things like tech you know I can get my brain around things and so I couldn't tell if I was just getting my brain around. Or did I want to write my own poetry book of my own work and that was a question for months so I didn't even for the first three months I was writing a different book and then yeah and then the question about how I got around it and part of the program now I'm like selling the program.
42:11.20
jellyfishind
Oh Wow yeah.
42:19.55
Neelam Patel
Part of the program is you get a developmental editor who meets with you once a week and if you schedule it if you schedule it once a week they're available once a week and of course I did and so at 1 point he was saying like Elam I feel like you have this like. Poetry book like it's on fire and this other nonfiction book about how poetry is making it into the mainstream feels like an outcome of your book of poetry and when he said that I felt this relief. So I think there's this question a lot of people have like is it fear or is it my intuition or is it my desire or think you know. So writing a book was my idea but like how do I prevent myself from jumping off the day job train and stepping on another train and that I didn't want to get on and getting somewhere I was like getting off a train stop and then getting on the wrong train. You know it's like wait a second I didn't just like drop. That beautiful train going to a beautiful place just to get on a trace somewhere else. You know like I want to make this worth it. So that that's slowing down that meter and really looking and seeing which things and you know I'm a very visceral person I think because I'm a dancer or whatever the information comes in my body for me. So. Feels like a relief whereas something feels like oh this is really exciting and I feel like I'm putting my energy out instead of it coming in makes a difference for me if that makes any sense. Okay.
43:38.25
jellyfishind
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and also like the fear and intuition piece I was just listening to another podcast before this where they were deciphering between what is fear and what is intuition so that Also yeah, yeah, which is I think for a lot of us for me for certain is hard to.
43:50.30
Neelam Patel
Oh that's interesting.
43:57.95
jellyfishind
Sometimes decipher. But, that that fear is like the biggest liar it'll lie to you all the time and that intuition is is really what comes to you like in the quiet moments where you know it speaks loudly but it's sort of quiet and calming or like yeah.
44:06.98
Neelam Patel
, Oh yeah, I like that like if the result of having that thought feels more calming for me and it's like very visceral I'm like if something just makes me feel like too activated I Think that's a good word though that you said calming like.. There's a groundedness to your intuition that like this this is right? and the reason it's right is because I know it's right and there's no data. But I just know that I need to write my book of poetry before I do anything else. You know, even if it doesn't lead me to the career and being on Tv as the woman who's talking about poetry making it to the Mainstream. You know.
44:30.75
jellyfishind
A.
44:43.80
Neelam Patel
So I'll get to actually share my poems. So.
44:43.60
jellyfishind
Yeah, so your book of poetry is called burning it down what does that title mean to you.
44:51.51
Neelam Patel
Well, the second half is also equally important. So I have to say both the title and the subtitle yet. No no apologies needed my title of my book is burning it down. You're a hundred percent right and the subtitle is dancing in the rubble.
44:56.13
jellyfishind
Sorry Yes, yeah.
45:09.10
Neelam Patel
And so burning it down is is my way of saying I was burning down the day job. My structures of what I thought were success. You know, but I think the important part of my title is that I didn't have answer I don't have an answer and I hope to never have the answer and so that's why the word. It's burning it down are important because what I'm realizing now you're into writing the book and it's been It was released a few months ago is that it's it's not burning down the career like that was just the beginning of the fire right? And now we can't close the fire down because all the structures of like. My belief system of why I've stayed in that job all those years those structures are starting to get looked at and therefore burned down and the dancing in the rubble is is a reference to what I was saying a little bit earlier that. But when you burn it down and the reason people don't burn things down I totally get it. It's really hard work and what you and I have done is that it's a mess and you don't feel stable and you don't feel like the things that you counted on for your self-esteem for your place in the world for you know. Your way of moving through the world are now deconstructed and what I see is that there's a part of everyone's life. That's a little bit just deconstructed you know relationship or something that is is a little deconstructed and either you can look at with someone who then burn down their. Have no choice but to look at the fire but we can ignore certain things and like go on vacations and do other things but but there's always something bubbling right? There's no light at the end of the tunnel like I said so what do we do when there's rubble. We dance in the rubble meaning we celebrate it and we welcome it. So now. Why. Love talking about shame and rave because I'm welcoming it because they were always there I was just not looking at them. Those doors were always there. So so my book is really like a Thanksgiving table where I used to be such a, what is it called bouncer at the door of my like soul like. Oh rage. No thanks or I would do like a validate is this worth it being rageful. It's like the rage is there I'm just shoving the rage out of my Thanksgiving table. So now I'm just inviting them all and I'm feeding them well like I'm like let's go ahead and rage like you are ready at the table I may as well feed you and. And the reason why this dancing in the rubble and inviting the feelings in even when uncomfortable is so important to me is that I was missing out on feeling fulfilled feeling happy feeling joyful feeling creative feeling curious and so it is just the sadness is that.
47:49.72
Neelam Patel
I'm trying to avoid anger so that I can feel happy but I have lost access to my happiness because I'm spending all my energy playing bouncer I'm not sitting at the table.
47:58.61
jellyfishind
Yeah, that's yes I mean that's literally the reason I wanted to start this podcast because I was like I'm feeling all of these sorts of ways is anybody else most likely and can we start talking about them and like. Shining lights on them and celebrating them because we all are feeling these these ways like no one's really all that different or unique. You know? Ah I Love that?, so you dedicated your book to yourself which I are to your future self which I just love.
48:20.44
Neelam Patel
Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes.
48:36.15
jellyfishind
, so you write to the future version of me who will emerge after making and sharing this work who is that person today.
48:45.81
Neelam Patel
Thank you for noticing that and for asking me this question I would say it's someone who I feel like my past version of myself now I'm getting emotional because I haven't really thought about this I'm like literally at the you know finish line of my book. Trying to understand that I'm now an author barely understanding it and I think now looking back I think I was believing in myself so hard like I was forcing myself to believe in myself like challenging my future self like I'm going to give you a book. You do it What you want. With it. You know and I feel like that never occurred to me until this moment that now I'm like okay will I take the challenge to take this book that my previous self gave me and make something of my life from it you know or or really. Digest it or will I just be like oh look at this pretty thing I made and move on you know and obviously that's not why she if I can call myself my previous selfish She that's not why she wrote it. She gave it to feed me you know and so and I think it's really cool that you called it out because that was one of the most vulnerable things I've ever done is not. If not just be polite and, dedicated it to something to people that you're supposed to dedicate books to.
50:01.77
jellyfishind
I Love that I love that so much. yeah I noticed it I was like that's fucking. Awesome.
50:08.43
Neelam Patel
But that was yeah I was like am I doing this am I doing this and then like when I submitted it for final proof I was like I guess I am you know like back to the Alexa voice. Sometimes your voice starts telling you things and you don't even recognize it and you're like was that me and.
50:19.15
jellyfishind
Ah, yeah.
50:25.82
jellyfishind
Yeah.
50:27.20
Neelam Patel
Yeah, it was me and it was the truth. You know when I was talking out loud about why I wrote the book and what I was doing with it I was writing it for me.
50:34.65
jellyfishind
Yeah, yeah, and that's how it be. That's why it's it is what it is I Look That's why it's so impactful and that's why when I read it I got emotional because you because you wrote it for you. You know and I felt and I just happened to I think resonate and felt I felt it too.
50:52.28
Neelam Patel
, yeah, thank you.
50:53.77
jellyfishind
I Think like when we're doing something for like validation or for other reasons you know it's just not. It's probably not going to be I think most likely as, yeah as impactful I think I don't know.
51:08.29
Neelam Patel
Yeah, thank you? Yeah, thank you for saying that because if the whole thing felt like a risk I'm like I'm not teaching anyone anything not telling anyone anything I'm just opening the door like if I like I said like if our souls are like big homes I'm just like opening the door for you to walk in and take a look inside of my mansion. You know of all these.
51:12.87
jellyfishind
Yeah.
51:28.27
Neelam Patel
Rooms that were scary even for me to look at and that felt dangerous again. It felt dangerous. But here we are and that's how I got to meet you and here we are.
51:28.94
jellyfishind
, yeah.
51:36.40
jellyfishind
, yeah,, Okay, so just a couple more questions and then we'll get to some poetry. you so you I think it's interesting to note that you were looking for something New. Back when you were 28 and at 45 you made the jump. How much do you think you had to go through all the things you went through to get to this Place. You're at now.
52:03.40
Neelam Patel
What a deep and important question because the part when I when I stop myself lately is because I'm thinking why did you wait this like you could have done this all along and the truth of the matter is I couldn't have I couldn't have I couldn't have. I had cultural barriers and I even hate to call them barriers because then I am I am disowning a part of myself that is real and true and lovable that I was scared of being an artist I was what would it mean to society. You know I can't just sit here and burnt. And burn it down and blame the culture and blame. You know it's like I mean I can but eventually I see that those cultural structures were were inside of me and I was playing it safe by having this poetry thing and this acting thing this dancing thing be this. I don't want to diminish it to say this cute little thing I did on the side because I did a lot with it but but still in my mind that wasn't them even though it was taking up more of my heart. It wasn't I still got to show up as a tech person like even if even I show up in a party say oh I'm gonna tell her everyone i' put it and I do it I get to secretly know. That I'm still I'm still legit I still have a tech show you know so I think I that's one of the biggest things I've learned in this whole process is the grace that you give yourself to learn about your previous self that there's no way like that's just not. If. There was a way Molly if there was a way she would have done it so how can I how can I say that to myself like oh you were a w you couldn't have done it before it's like well yeah, you can call it what you want, but those structures they were super loud in my head I don't know I guess you can call it being a wuss I don't know what you call it.
53:40.17
jellyfishind
Just yeah.
53:56.24
Neelam Patel
It was being han.
55:13.66
jellyfishind
Okay, thank you for answering that do you want to read some poetry.
55:18.30
Neelam Patel
Yeah, yeah.
55:27.55
Neelam Patel
So sure, let's get into it.
55:30.75
jellyfishind
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a part of me that kind of wants you to read the danger vulnerability but I'm also curious what you're what's speaking to you I'm open to anything but I'm open to anything.
55:45.59
Neelam Patel
So yeah, well you start the first poem you mentioned with danger of vulnerability and that's one of my favorite poems. So I would love to share that 1 Okay.
55:55.38
jellyfishind
Ah, great, perfect.
56:19.68
Neelam Patel
Okay, so this poem is called. The danger of vulnerability aka. What rude people call intimacy issues I don't trust you what if you got the insides from me what if you steal my property the living breathing estate. Everything I make what if you drain my water fountain where all my ideas are born like minnows asking to be freed I don't trust you, you might saw off the center of my being replace it with your mission control steering me accelerating me into a. Rash landing I don't trust you what if I need you and then what if I hitchhike into my life with a soft thb exposed and you run me over with your fucking truck wiped me out before even asking where it was I was heading. What if you see blood all over my lips from the scavenging I have done what if you rip out my teeth after I am done talking and I fold my mouth forever in defeat I mean what do you care if I vanished off your earth would you just. Turn the dial on your music box again waiting for your next tomorrow to pop the one without any fragrance of me still I don't want to miss out on your generous landing pad where I could even build myself a new house. The first. Have to lay out all my organs. Maybe yours too on the table then frame them in my vomit can the sun in your heart contain it to see my biggest fall. My bikes handle bars and my brain all splattered on the ground like a small bird no longer sitting in traffic when the sun in my heart handle it if you come to the scene without your ambulance carrying no medicine just a bag of your mushy gushy loves I don't want to need you. It's easier to throw our talks into the ground burn them turn around blink my eyes step away. Never see you again. What if I let you see me though and then I am no longer an interesting story just a blob pulsing eating and shitting then you'll know then you'll go.
59:02.39
Neelam Patel
Let's make a new contract I don't want you to eat me I don't want you to take my voice like certain men take from women like certain mothers take from children like certain fathers take from futures I would rather just dip my toes into our pool. My flip flops are completely within my reach I still have my tabel On. Just don't want to get all my hair wet then risk losing my throat my neck my oesophagus my oxygen my fear comes out in 4 words fuck you organ thief in some other Undersea language. Might come out as these 3 don't leave.
59:42.68
jellyfishind
Ah, thank you That was amazing I was getting teary us so good. Thank you for sharing that.
59:47.64
Neelam Patel
Ah, thank you. It is so scary Vulnerability is so scary we don't want to be han. We want to be the version of ourselves that we want to that we feel safe but then it's hard to hold those structures up.
01:00:04.12
jellyfishind
Ah, it's so hard. It is the heart. It is the hardest for me. It's the hardest. Ah yes, so thank you for writing that poem because it just it just it just really really speaks to like me and especially like right now where I'm at and I Just thank you.
01:00:09.25
Neelam Patel
.
01:00:19.38
Neelam Patel
, yeah, and thank you for saying that because that was my hope for the poems like I don't necessarily want you to I mean of course I want you to have an easier time with the vulnerability, but I think just knowing someone else is going through the same thing releases that shame and so that was my biggest hope.
01:00:22.87
jellyfishind
Thank you.
01:00:33.76
jellyfishind
, yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you I know I know I'm not alone I and thank goodness what a relief What? what? a fucking relief. Yeah.
01:00:38.23
Neelam Patel
With releasing this out into the world. You're not alone.
01:00:45.86
Neelam Patel
The relief of imperfection. Yes, yes, .
01:01:30.81
Neelam Patel
You are enough. There is a star out in space completely unaware how we are dazzled by her light. Held together by her own gravity of presence to behold. She is enough for simply existing.
01:02:00.60
jellyfishind
Yay! Thank you so much. Thank you for just being here and talking to me and answering all my questions I know that some of them are not easy to answer.
01:02:09.60
Neelam Patel
You're good. You're good at this. You did a lot of research and in your in your heart and in the material. So I appreciate your preparation. It really put me in a safe place to share. So.
01:02:17.69
jellyfishind
Oh good I'm so glad you said that and that means a ah lot to hear because yeah, that's my intention. thank you so much.