Today’s episode is all about adult friendships because we don’t talk enough about what it takes to keep old friends and make new ones. Friendships require work just like romantic relationships, and today’s episode breaks it all down, from friendship expectations to being ghosted in friendships, saying “I love you” in friendships, how to ask people you’ve just met if they’d like to be your friend, and what to do when they’re just not that into you. Friendships deserve more attention, and today’s episode is just that. Enjoy!
Today’s episode is all about adult friendships because we don’t talk enough about what it takes to keep old friends and make new ones. Friendships require work just like romantic relationships, and today’s episode breaks it all down, from friendship expectations to being ghosted in friendships, saying “I love you” in friendships, how to ask people you’ve just met if they’d like to be your friend, and what to do when they’re just not that into you. Friendships deserve more attention, and today’s episode is just that. Enjoy!
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📍 📍 📍 Have you recently lost a really good friendship you thought would last forever.
I have lost more than one and it is devastating. Friend relationships can be hard to navigate often, even harder than romantic ones. So why don't we talk more about what it takes to be someone's friend or what is required for someone to be our friend?
Well, dear listeners, that's exactly what we're doing here today. So stick around to learn why we sometimes lose our best friends. And what it takes to create lasting new ones. Welcome to I am this age, the podcast proving it's never too late and you're never too old. So just go do that thing. You're always talking about. I'm Molly cider, a certified professional life coach, a speaker storyteller, the producer of insightful videos.
It's more than just your legacy and like a gazillion other things. Look, we often think that our best friends are there. People we can rely on forever and unconditionally, but the reality is that friend relationships change as we change. And hopefully. We're changing all the time. There is so much information and advice about romantic relationships, but hardly anyone ever talks about what it takes to make and keep a friend and how sad it can be when we lose one, we thought would always be there. And there's almost no talk 📍 about how hard it is to try and make new friends as an adult.
So my guest today is here to talk all things, adult friendships with me, including friendship, expectations, being ghosted in friendships saying, I love you in friendships. How to ask people you've just met. If they'd like to be your friend and what to do when they're 📍 just not that into you. But before we get into the episode. I wanted to remind you that I am a speaker as in, I get up on stages and inspire groups and organizations on how to feel connected, understood, and less alone through the transformative power of sharing your story.
Basically what I do on the podcast all the time. So if you have a group you'd like me to speak to please click the link in the show notes to get in touch with me.
Now. On to the episode. 📍
📍 📍 📍 I am Jenny Kalkun, and I'm the CEO and founder of Inner Earthquake, and I am 52.
Jenny grew up in Belgium. You can probably hear it in her charming accent. She lived in Paris, then Switzerland, then Spain, Scotland, London. And now she's a resident of Santa Barbara for almost nine years. Jenny spent most of her career in executive leadership in corporate and was very near burnout before leaving London.
Her husband is from New York and so together they decided to go where the seasons are always sunny and warm. Jenny started her own business in California. So she changed careers, moved continents, and basically changed her entire life all at once at around the age of 44. But we're not here today to talk about career change.
We're here to talk about what happens when your friendships change and adulthood. Jenny didn't know anyone in Santa Barbara, but her husband. So, what was it like to all of a sudden have no friends? And how did she find new ones?
That was a bit of a shock, actually, that, that I hadn't expected. It's not like I lost my friends, but all of a sudden they were eight and nine hours ahead. Um, and so they weren't just like available for a call or a, you know, they would be asleep by the time it was, you know, or, you know, it was their evening by the time it was lunchtime for me.
So. My friendships definitely changed and it felt really lonely for a while.
Yeah, I bet. What were some of the ways that you started to build your friendship community? When you arrived.
Yeah, I would literally go to every single event that was in the community. It was like first Thursdays, you know, art walk little networking meetings. Like, I believe one of them was called Coffee and Connections. And so I would literally, Attend these meetings and get to know people and, and that's kind of how I got to know people like, oh, I need renter's insurance or, um, you know, so then I, I would work with the, I would, become a client and that's just literally how I met a lot of people and then out of those lots of people, I met like a few, People who became friends and who became good friends.
Was it right away that you started to do this? Or did you have like a moment of like, panic, or maybe not panic, but just like stillness where you were like, what do I do? I don't have any friends here. How did you realize that you needed to go into the community and actually be pretty active?
I'm an introvert, so, I'm perfectly happy with my own company but I was starting my own business and I was starting to work with clients and sort of finding my feet there and it seemed like a good idea to speak with people, see me.
Especially women who, who I then started working with were experiencing the same things, um, you know, or what their experiences were. So and so that was really the motivation was sort of like curiosity and a desire to connect with more women, especially.
Yeah.
Lately I've been working on growing my own friendship circles by making more of an effort to go to networking events and parties, and basically anything I'm invited to. But I'm an introvert. And going to all of the events all the time sounds exhausting and quite frankly, terrible. I often have to remind myself to put in the effort.
And then once I do make all of these plans, the next thing I have to worry about is how my nervous system is going to handle all the stimulation. So how as an introvert, did Jenny do it?
I think the situation was slightly different in that I was in a completely new environment. You know, no matter how much in Europe, you know, we grow up with American movies and American music and, you know, basically American culture. No matter how much I thought, Oh, I've, you know, I've been an expat for so many years now, like I know how to do this. It was still a completely new environment. Literally, it was like different weather different ways of doing things. And so that helped because I wasn't like if I, if I look back at, you know, living in London, would I have done that? I don't know that I would have done that because it would be like, Oh, I don't know.
It's kind of a schlep. I'm kind of, you know, comfortable in my, you know, in my little comfort zone. This was so completely different that it was like, Oh, this is new. Oh, I'm curious about that. What is, what is this? Oh, what is that? I I'm going to go at least once to, to see what it is. So I think that was, it was actually a benefit to be in a completely new environment.
Well, that makes a lot of sense, but we can't all pick up and move to a foreign country just to make new friends. So what do we do when we've lived in a place for 10, 12, 20 years with no intention of leaving?
Yeah, the comfort zone is it's a thing, right? Like it's, especially as an introvert, we like to sort of, I don't want to generalize, but like for me, I like to have an idea of, Where I'm going, what I'm doing, who's going to be there and to not have any of that was like, okay, well, I'm, I'm just going to try it and if I don't like it, I can literally leave.
Um, there were events that I would go to where I would like walk in and there would be like super loud music and be like, okay, this is nice. And I would turn around and walk away. you don't have to stay if you don't like it, I was far away from my comfort zone.
There was no comfort zone, uh, inside. So, I'm pretty sure that that would have been a challenge for me as well. If, had I been in my comfort zone.
Yeah, that makes sense. And I love that reminder. I'm always telling myself when I'm going to things that feel uncomfortable or, you know, I'm like not sure if I'll know anybody or what will I talk about? Will I like this? I always say to myself, you can leave, you can always go home. Um, but I feel like sometimes I forget, like I'm going to be stuck there all night.
No, no, no. I can leave whenever I can walk in and I can walk out if I want to. Can you tell me about a time when you tried to befriend someone and it didn't work out? Has that ever happened to you?
Yeah,
As, as, like, since you've been here as an adult.
I feel like I've met so many people. many good friends where it was mutual that I guess I haven't really remembered the other times. Um, yeah, I can't think of an example right now.
Jennie may have yet to experience this, but I certainly have, there have been plenty of people I've met as adults with whom I think I'd like to be friends with, but who don't necessarily want to be friends with me back or perhaps they're just not thinking about it. And I'm too shy to ask if they'd like to be my friend. Or that one time when I did work up the courage to ask, to make plans with a prospective new friend only for there to be complete silence on their end. Yeah, that was awkward.
But listen, it was a risk. I knew it was a risk and I was willing to take that risk. And the reality is I'm not for everyone and everyone's not for me. And that is okay. And this is just all part of making new friends as an adult. It's not personal. It can't be personal. That person barely knows me.
It has happened that I have met people who seem to be in the, into the friendship than I am. I learned about myself that I sort of have a friendship style, which is more about meeting someone, liking them, and then kind of going, Oh, this could, this could be interesting.
Let's see where this goes. And that seems to take me a little while. And so there's, you know, there's kind of a process. It's a natural process. I'm not, I'm not, ticking off boxes, but sort of seems like a natural process of we get together, we have a great time, let's do it again, let's do it again, let's do it again, and see where this goes as opposed to I've had people that I've being in that process with, what felt to me like I was in that process, who then really, it felt like they were moving very quickly in the relationship.
And then that felt awkward because I don't feel like we have friendships. It's sort of like a nebulous understanding. It, it encompasses many different relationships, right? From someone that you, meet professionally to like the person that you can be parted with. And I don't think that we have language to describe this and we don't have, you know, with dating, we sort of have, you know, a few rules like, Oh, let's, let's go on three dates before the next stage or, you know, and I don't feel like we have that in friendships.
And so I wonder what the role is of expectations to like, what if, what if. people that are in that, uh, in those beginning stages of a friendship, of a relationship. What if they have different expectations? And, and do we talk about that? Can we talk about that? Like it's, it's a personal thing, obviously, but I think it's an interesting question.
What do you think?
What was that like? Like when the person was more into you than you were into them, like, were they calling you constantly or like, what was that? What does that mean?
yeah, it was more, and I wonder again, like, maybe that's, like, that's a cultural difference, but it was more around like, all of a sudden that person would be like, oh, I really love you. And I'd be like, what? Like, have we evolved to the stage of saying, I love you? Like, I'm not sure that I love that person, right?
Um, so it was a little bit like that. And then it felt a little bit like, ooh, I don't know, like, I don't know how to say to that person, like, I don't know that I'm ready to say I love you because to me saying I love you to a friend really means that, like, we've really bonded, we've really like, I'm, You can call me in the middle of the night if there's something, you know, wrong or, so again, I think that's about expectations and, and maybe there's a little bit of cultural difference as well.
I don't know. I, I didn't grow up with a, in a family that said I love you. So, you know, that's maybe a personal thing
That's interesting. I just had an experience like that the other day, actually, now that you're saying that. I also don't think I grew up in a family, um, household that we didn't express love by saying I love you to each other either. So it's, saying I love you has always been a big deal for me, definitely in relationships.
And that's been an issue in some of my relationships because it takes me longer. But I had somebody the other day. Somebody I just sort of know casually, who I like very much, but, you know, I was saying goodbye to her and she gave me a big hug and said, I love you. You know, and I was like, what? And I don't, and I didn't know how to respond.
It's, it's interesting that we revert to the, to romantic relationship language because there doesn't seem to be a friend language, right? Like we,
yeah.
you know, how do you tell someone? I'm there for you. I really, really like you. I'm not sure that it's love yet. You know, like without, without offending that person, I don't think that we're well versed in friendships, budding friendships, especially.
Yeah, that's so true. Because even as you're saying that, I'm like, what would that look like? Because with a romantic relationship, it's like the stakes are high. You know, there's a clear interest where there's also when you're in a romantic relationship, you're spending a, you know, significant amount of time together, or you're working towards that.
And with a friendship, my friendships look different depending on the friend. And so when making a new one, how do you, what do you even say? Like, what are you, how do you ever sit down and be like, okay, we're becoming friends. What does that mean to you? What is, what are your expectations?
What does that look like? Like, wow, I wouldn't even know where to begin to have a conversation like that. And it would feel very uncomfortable and awkward. And for some reason I'm feeling like presumptuous, but I'm not sure that that's right. What do you, what do you think?
I feel like I have the principles of communication down. If a problem arises, right? Like I, I know how to address that. I feel that I'm actually venturing into this like completely anew, even though I'm 52 years old. I've, I've recently started experiencing a new friendship with actually a, a number of women, um, that I literally met in the last year.
And then one of them in particular, we seem to have We really sort of have this bond with each other, which feels very, very close. And a part of me is like, Ooh, this is, this is a little bit strange. Like, am I like, can I call her? Can I just like how I feel like I'm learning how to do friendship completely anew.
And so far I've been met with sort of the same feelings from her going, you know, No, I want to spend time with you. I want to cultivate this friendship. Like, I really feel this bond for you. And it's completely new to me that we are saying these things to each other. It feels like, I don't know, maybe something that should have, that I should have learned when I was seven or something,
Yes, it is something we should have learned when we were seven.
How to communicate in relationships, all kind of relationships is something we should have all learned in school. This is a big, big, big miss. In my opinion, considering that relationships is all we ever do, no matter where and what we do with our lives. Ah, anyway, back to Jenny.
And it kind of feels like, ooh, this is, this is exciting and, and it's really sweet to get to know each other and be adults, right, and navigate this and say to each other, like, I really, really like you.
And I really feel like there's a bond. And do you want to explore that more? And can we get together? And, the reflection that I have about that is, maybe as I grow and as I become more authentic and authentic.
You know, I can create more intimacy, as I create more intimacy with myself, I can create more intimacy with, with others.
Yeah, And just be more comfortable with that because there does seem to be a lot more information about romantic relationships than friendships, for sure, but so much of it spills over and You know, there's conflict with friends and how do you deal with conflict with friends?
And
Excuse me. Sorry. I'm going to interrupt myself for a moment because I think with friendships, unlike monogamous relationships, you often have several friends, all with different needs, expectations, and ways of handling conflict. And that mixed in with your own needs can get a bit more complicated than in romantic relationships with just one person.
We do put a lot of expectations on our romantic part. partner or partners in, in that we expect this person to deliver all the things, right? Um, and, and I believe more in romantic relationships can provide some of the things, but not all of the things.
So I feel like I've always had, um, a village around me and it, feels like maybe it takes the pressure off of Maybe off of myself as well, in, in relationship to other friends. Because I feel like if I, if I'm going through something and I need to call someone, life is happening and I might know that one friend is going through something with a child or something like that.
I'm not necessarily going to call that person. person. Not because, not necessarily because I don't want to burden her with this thing, but it's like, emotionally there's already a lot going on with her, but I have another friend that I can call and that I can talk about that. And generally my friends are sort of aware anyway of what's going on in my life because we have a relationship, but I don't feel like that one friend has to to be everything to me in, in terms of friendship.
it's okay if you miss my call and, and don't call me back for a few days. Like, it's totally okay. We're, we're all doing life. I find that that's more helpful to see friendships that way. Like it takes a village. It takes a village of friends.
Yeah, I love this. I,
Mm
I love that idea and reminder because it's almost like you're creating like a little company or something like a little business and everybody contributes in different ways. And so you might call the one friend for one scenario, but a different friend for a different scenario, everybody has their strengths, um, and their, Not weaknesses, but you know, things that they're better at than others.
Because I think also sometimes there's an expectation or that all of your friends are going to provide the same thing. So like, well, I talk to this person every day. And so if I don't talk to you every day, then you must not be as good of a friend to me.
Right.
no, that's not, it's just. People provide different things for different reasons at different times.
and as you say that, as an introvert, I'm like, my God, I, couldn't handle all of my friendships being the same if, if they required checking in every day or like that would just be way too much for, for, for my being
same. Ha ha ha. What has your experience been with losing friends as an adult? Ha
Complicated. Um,
you lost any good friends, dear friends as an adult that maybe you didn't ever expect to happen?
Yeah, in the last few years, actually, and I mean, in hindsight, I see why, you know, maybe we weren't necessarily a good match and it's still painful, and as much as I'd like to think that I did everything I could, and I, I did my part in contributing to. Ending this relationship nicely, you know, full circle that hasn't happened in a couple of friendships in the last, a few years that have ended.
And so, yeah, so that's why I said complicated because it's, it's about letting go even when it doesn't feel complete as a relationship. And there's two people and it's not, I, I heard someone say once, like, you know, like in a marriage, right? Like in a relationship, well, every person brings 50%. It's like, no, actually every person should bring 100 percent to the table.
And I agree. So, you know, I can't control what other people do or, or no matter how much or how close I thought we were and then being ghosted, you know, like feels a violent end to a relationship. And it brings up more questions than anything else, but
there's nothing I can do about it.
Right. So.
You're welcome.
how do you handle something like that? Like being ghosted by somebody who you thought was a dear friend? What happens to your own sense of self within a friendship or within that friendship?
Yeah, I know the reason that this person gave me before they ghosted me, but there was no conversation. There was no desire to wrap it up. Which to me felt disrespectful of the relation that we had had. And so there's definitely been grieving and it's difficult to grieve when you're not entirely sure, like, I think we could have done more, but maybe, like, this was the end for that person and, They just didn't feel like doing anything more. So that it's hard. It's a grieving process for, for sure. Like I still think, you know, like certain things that I see, I'm like, Oh, I'm going to call. Oh no. Okay. Or, you know, I'll see something in a store, or a card, or like, Oh, she would have thought that was funny. It's like any relationship, I think, that ends, or or maybe a person goes away, or It's, it's hard and, I think grieving is the first part of it. it's maybe also grieving the person that I was in that relationship, right? There's a part of me as well that has gone with that friendship.
yeah,
So,
do you think that there's a difference between Losing a relation, like a romantic relationship and losing a friendship and what is the big difference? Yeah,
I find that such an interesting question because in a way I am happily married to the love of my life, but I was married before that. And what is interesting is that I have relationships with friends that go back decades. You know, they saw me through my first marriage and, and, and in a way those relationships outlast my romantic ones, right?
So, yeah, it's a question that I have, like are they really that different? Like what is the difference?
What has been the difference between how you? View your sense of self after losing a romantic relationship versus losing a friendship. Is there a difference?
I think there's maybe, for me, a difference in, in intensity, but really it's, it's all part of like, if you really want to dig deep, it's really part of an identity, right? So I see myself as friend to this person. What they think of me is, is important, just like it would be in a romantic relationship. And then when that falls away, a part of me questions like, well, Well, who am I if I'm not friend of, in, in that friend relationship, just like it would in a romantic relationship.
Like I see that with my clients, for example, who might go through a bereavement, you know, because of a partner who died or, or a divorce, who, you know, Are grieving that part of themselves, because who am I if I'm not part of the we? And so it's, it's similar. I think with friendships it's maybe not as intense because you're not you know, maybe your day to day living arrangements are not the same with a, with a friend.
But I think it's, it's the same,
yeah, I think it's for me, I think it's not as
mm-Hmm.
off the bat. Being, um, rejected by a romantic partner feels much more intense right away, but I think being rejected by a friend, the feeling is elongated it lasts so much longer and I think it's really more intense in the long run because I think of something like you said where it's like my identity is being a good friend is being somebody who You know, you can confide in and feel safe around and it's If you just decided that you don't want to be friends with me, then clearly you're not feeling one of those things.
And so now how do I reconcile that in myself? And especially because I can't talk to the person about it, especially if they've ghosted me, which I've had that experience with one friend recently. It's very confusing and it's really upsetting and I have to figure it out all by myself over here.
And it's just a whole different type of challenge, where I think it's like a romantic relationship. It's a lot easier to just kind of be like, well, fuck it, I wasn't for them, you know? They weren't attracted to me, or they're not ready for what I'm ready for, or, there are so many easier reasons to cling on to why a romantic relationship doesn't work than a friendship.
Also because there are all, there are so many different types of friendships and friendships can look so many different ways that it's like, really, we couldn't find a single way to hold onto this friendship, even if it looked different, like, you know, that's
can be so hard and so painful.
And so Awakening.
Yeah. There's, there's also something that strikes me about, you use the word rejected,, I think, you know, with age One of the things that has changed for me is that there's almost a sense of with these, with these friendships that I've ended of it it wasn't personal. And I mean, of course it's deeply personal, but in a sense it was also about that person's journey and my part and my journey.
And, you know, they, they diverge at, at some point. And, even though we thought that we would be friends for life, something happened and it's almost not personal. And, and I'm not saying I'm not taking responsibility for, for the, for the, unskillful ways that I was in a friendship. But there's also something about, well, ultimately it is about me and it is about you and we are two individuals and we're, we maybe want different things and we're going in different directions.
And so it was lovely while it was there, or it was helping us work something out while we were friends. And I, I know that That maybe that sounds a little bit woo woo, but I do feel like with these friendships that ended, I do see, in hindsight, many reasons that they couldn't have possibly gone on. And it has taught me more about what kind of a friend I am and what kind of friendships I want.
And I think this new friendship that, that I'm experiencing Is a direct result of that journey, of that, of the learning that came out of the end of those other friendships.
I love that.
sense, it makes sense in my head, but.
perfect sense. Yeah, we have all these friends, at least I have had many friends where I'm like, well, this person is just going to be my friend forever. It's never going to
Mm,
And then it does, and it's devastating. But I think if we start to really think about it, I don't know an adult who hasn't lost a friendship like that, a dear
friend.
And it's always such a shock. It's so surprising. We just, it's almost like we take our friendships for granted. And I think also, you know, that's part of the problem. We're not working on our friendship relationships as much as maybe would be helpful.
And also, yeah, sometimes they just run their course like any other relationship. And while that's really hard and sad and sometimes shocking, it's so normal and it's like any other. And there's always something to learn and grow from it if you pay attention and allow yourself to, to do that, to grow from it.
I'm curious, what does a true friend look like for you?
it's someone who sees all of me, which of course requires me to allow them to see me. That's the intimacy part. And who accepts me. you know, my, terribly flawed being that I am, right? I'm a, I'm a flawed human being. Doesn't try to change me, holds up a mirror. yeah, I, I think that's sort of, those are the key elements for me.
And, and it's, lovely to find someone who seems to have the same. expectations or, can, can voice, Oh, this is what I want and what do you want? Like, that is very new to me and it feels really lovely. So I
lovely.
We're already at the part of the conversation where I asked Jenny to reintroduce herself without the titles. For those of you who are new here, it's because I will die on this hill that we are not our titles. We are not our successes, our failures, hobbies, or any of the stuff that we acquire. We are why we choose those things. What we learned from those things, how we grow from those things and how we decide to show up next time.
That is who we are. And this is what Jenny said.
I'm really interested in spreading love and kindness and compassion in the world in whatever way I can do that.
Where can people find you if they want to work with you?
my website is my name jennycalcoon. com or I'm on LinkedIn under the same name. It's unique enough that you'll find me and I'm on Instagram as inner earthquake. I would love for people to reach out. Um, I'm always up for a virtual coffee chat.
Awesome. I'll put all of that in the show notes. Is there anything else you'd like to share before we leave each other?
Well, I want to thank you for, for. inviting this conversation. We, we were having a conversation and we were starting to go in this direction and then you, you paused and said, Hey, let's, you know, let's do this. Like, let's have a conversation on friendship. And I'm really grateful that you did. Cause this was such a juicy, great topic to delve into and, and to think about.
So
There's so much more we could talk about when it comes to adult friendships. So maybe I'll have Jenny back because I really liked talking to her. And it may not come as a surprise to hear that she and I are working on our own new friendship. If you liked this episode or any episode, please share it with someone else you think might also enjoy it.
Please also make sure you're subscribed and rate and review. I know the algorithm game is silly and yet it's the world that we live in and it's what it takes to grow a show. And you know what, the more we grow, the more we can help you grow. Thank you, dear listeners. Thank you also to my old guitar teacher, Dan Davin for my music. David Harbour for the artwork I am. This age is produced by jellyfish industries. I'm your host, Molly cider. Catch you all next time. Bye.