Audrey Mayer, an ecologist with the US Fish and Wildlife Service, is on the pod today! She was a professor living in the UP of Michigan with her son, Lucas, until she recently left her job and she and Lucas moved to New Hampshire. It turns out even if you’re working in the highest echelons of academia, you still might have feelings of doubt, failure, and regret from time to time. Listen now to hear Audrey’s story of change, plus a short about a crush I had on my college writing teacher, Peter Orner. (Peter, if you're out there, hi.) Enjoy!
Audrey Mayer, an ecologist with the US Fish and Wildlife Service, is on the pod today! She was a professor living in the UP of Michigan with her son, Lucas, until she recently left her job and she and Lucas moved to New Hampshire. It turns out even if you’re working in the highest echelons of academia, you still might have feelings of doubt, failure, and regret from time to time. Listen now to hear Audrey’s story of change, plus a short about me slinging pizza after college. (Peter, if you're out there, hi.) Enjoy!
01:38.12
Audrey Mayer
All right here we go ah hi my name's Audrey Mayer I'm forty nine years old and I am currently an ecologist with the us fish and wildlife service.
01:53.33
jellyfishind
Awesome! Hi Audrey welcome to the pod. How are you I'm good I'm um on the mend you can still hear my voices little stuffy. Thank you? um.
01:56.22
Audrey Mayer
Thank you! I'm good. How are you. Yeah I was going to ask you how you were doing. Ah.
02:12.90
jellyfishind
I am feeling fine I just sound crappy So I don't know how long this is going to them I'm going to sound like this I feel like maybe forever I don't know.
02:21.76
Audrey Mayer
Yeah, this one takes a while to get over. That's what I've heard even if you have a mild case. It just sort of drags on which is not at all helpful for you to hear. But I get it. Ah yeah.
02:29.57
jellyfishind
Yeah, it's any information is helpful. You know there's like so little information out there. So anything is helpful Anyway, all right? So let's get started in your story. Um, so.
02:42.13
Audrey Mayer
Yep yep.
02:48.43
jellyfishind
You have you studied ecology. You've always known kind of for forever that you wanted to do this and be in this world. Um, so you studied it in undergrad. You went to grad school. You got your phd. You got a post do at a university um, all of which were sort of pointing you in this direction of becoming a professor but instead of being a professor at first you had an opportunity to work for the Epa which you took right and for ah probably a bunch of reasons I imagine but. Ah, huge one was so that you can pay off your student loans faster which makes sense. Um, so um, so you were living in Cincinnati you were working at the epa you didn't really like Cincinnati very much. Um, even though.
03:43.74
jellyfishind
I have like I have friends who live in Cincinnati so hi friends in Cincinnati we love you. We see you but wasn't for you. Um, and you got this opportunity to work at was it at the University Of Helsinki in Finland that right? Okay, so that was your early 30 s so you moved to Finland.
03:44.98
Audrey Mayer
Sure.
03:57.33
Audrey Mayer
Yep yep.
04:46.60
jellyfishind
You became a single mom in your mid 30 s in Finland and from there you decide. Um that you want to get a job in The States because you need to support.
05:04.58
jellyfishind
Your child obviously and probably for other reasons.
05:09.33
Audrey Mayer
Yeah I well I would say the reason why I was applying for jobs in the states is it was really hard to get a permanent position in Finland like even for finns because everybody has ph ds there so I wasn't I didn't have any unique skills.
05:29.21
Audrey Mayer
That would make me more qualified than most of the finns over there. So Finland is kind of like Canada where they give preference to right to residents and citizens not like in the us. So there was just no way I was going to outcompete fins.
05:39.29
jellyfishind
Right? right? Of course.
05:47.73
jellyfishind
Got it.
05:48.37
Audrey Mayer
For those jobs because they're all super highly educated and qualified and so I would have loved to stay in Finland but my chances of getting a job. There were not great. So that's why I applied for jobs back in the states. Yeah.
05:59.91
jellyfishind
Um, okay makes sense makes sense. So then you get you got a job. Um, that's when you went to the to the UP in Michigan right.
06:07.47
Audrey Mayer
Yeah.
06:15.24
jellyfishind
Okay, so you were an assistant professor and then eventually a full professor and you stayed there for a total of 12 years okay what was the name of the university I should know this okay Michigan tech and for those out there who listen to Louise Dyble.
06:25.10
Audrey Mayer
It was Michigan tech. Yeah. Yeah, we overlapped for a couple of years.
06:34.80
jellyfishind
That's they knew each other and that's how I met you. Okay, um, and so while you were sort of working your way up the academic Ladder. Um. You became more and more um, unhappy at your job at work with with the academic system disillusioned yeah and you didn't like the school you didn't like academia very much what what was it that you dislike so much and also.
06:57.62
Audrey Mayer
Yeah, disillusioned unhappy.
07:12.19
jellyfishind
How did it affect like who you were as a human being at that.
07:16.27
Audrey Mayer
Yeah that's a great question. Um, so and just to so to go back to my time at the epa one of the things I really loved was that we were. It was very collaborative that work like at the Epa we were all working. At the same mission on teams. Um there. There wasn't competitiveness. There weren't egos like when it came time to figure out you know journal ah article authorship or. Um, you know who was going to be the project lead and who would be the co-leads or whatever. Um, it was all very rational and generous, and you know we were all sort of in it together. Um, and the 1 thing I just grew to really. Dislike about academia is how competitive and individualistic it is you know everybody's working in their own silo on their own thing and they're supposed to be collaboration and we're supposed to you know find synergy and work in these big teams on on big research questions. Um, but really at the end of the day your tenure your promotion. All of that is just individual and it even comes to the point where if you have if all of your papers are co-authored there starts to be questions like well how much of this is your work. You know like and how much of it is others. And so it really wards rewards like a a very individualistic and sort of cold cost benefit analysis to your decisions and when I found myself doing that out of my own sense of self preservation I just felt like I was. Dying inside. You know, like that's not how I like to work. Um, it's not how I like to live and so um I mean that wasn't the only thing that pushed me out ah out of academia but that was a big one.
09:20.71
Audrey Mayer
Um, and just the the competitiveness to the point of being toxic. You know I mean just really, um, behaviors that I didn't want to be around and then sometimes I'd catch myself doing those behaviors and I'd be like what am I Like. What am I doing oh my gosh I've drunk the kool-aid I'm behaving like this. Um so it did affect who I was in not a great way at all. Um I didn't like who I was becoming in that system.
09:49.99
jellyfishind
How did you like what did it take for you to really recognize that you were becoming this thing that you didn't really like.
09:59.39
Audrey Mayer
So Yeah I think it's funny because I've told you that I felt like you know I was that proverbial frog in the slowly boiling pot of water and so you know looking back. There were so many. Instances that in hindsight I was like Wow that's embarrassing. That's really bad. Um, but I have to say that there was one Ph D dissertation defense where looking back like that was that was where I crossed the line I was. Too Confrontational. So My points were valid but the way that I was making them was not right. It was the way that all of the you know Snotty Arrogant ah professors who are just there to cut down students like.
10:55.48
Audrey Mayer
That whole stereotype I look back on it and I think yeah, that could be said about me that's where I was I was like okay nope this is not for me if this is who I'm becoming. You know this crotchety angry bitter professor that just. Cuts down students instead of you know and it was like my intent was to help my intent was to point out like you know the really glaring problems that you know that just couldn't stand but it was the wrong place to do that. It was the wrong time and I did it in the wrong way and. And yeah, that was the moment where I'm like nope I'm becoming the the 1 thing I never wanted to be like the 1 thing I always looked down upon those types of professors and there I was so that was like yeah this is the end of my academic career I need to.
11:53.10
jellyfishind
Wow I Imagine that was well I don't know just like a really, that's this sounds like a ah lot at once like I I can just imagine I mean I know like just from my own experience like when I'm not.
11:53.64
Audrey Mayer
Ah, need to go elsewhere. This is not working.
12:03.99
Audrey Mayer
Yeah.
12:11.68
jellyfishind
Um, what I don't show up I Guess the way that I want to or intend to or know that I'm capable of and then I like have to go home and sort of like sit with that and like go to sleep at night Somehow like those are really hard moments.
12:25.88
Audrey Mayer
Yeah, well I think I mean as a parent I have those all the time where I hit the end of the day and I'm like I wish I could get a redo on that day he had ah like ah there were a lot of things I wish that I had done differently, and I think that's normal like that is whatever your life is.
12:45.32
Audrey Mayer
You have days where you're off or you're just not patient enough or you know, whatever's going on it. Yeah, but then there are days when you it and it didn't hit me in the moment. It just hit me a couple days later like that. That's like a.
13:03.19
jellyfishind
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
13:03.95
Audrey Mayer
Ah, shift change. That's not a bad day that's me on the path to something I don't want to be and so those are the ones that you know you don't necessarily know it in the moment or when you hit the bed at night. It's usually you sort of you start reflecting. You have that little voice in your head and you're just like that was way worse. That wasn't just a bad day like ah, a misstep or a faux pa or you know I'm the queen of putting my foot in my mouth I do it all the time that was not what that was. You know that was something different.
13:33.51
jellyfishind
Ah, right, right? So what was it like as you sort of began to understand that this world of Academia wasn't really what you thought it was going to be.
13:47.89
Audrey Mayer
So it's funny like so right when I I started my career after my ph d in federal service. Um, and I really I really did like it so I had that experience of knowing a different sector right. Like I wasn't the type of person who I went straight into a into a professor position after my ph d had never worked outside of academia didn't know what was out there so I knew it was out there and I knew you know I'd say two or three years before I finally ended up leaving. That I was like I need to be back in federal service. You know that's what like there's a lot of frustrations. It's not perfect. I mean you know there is a ton of paperwork and stuff but the spirit of how people work and the spirit of. Everybody working towards the same mission like that's where I wanted to be that's where I felt at home. But I still because I had been in academia so long I still had that the fight to not feel like a failure. You know, like academia is just so puffed up like the smartest of the smart and the best the best of the bright you know like the cream of the crop they're in academia and if you can't find an academic job or you don't get tenure or whatever. You're a failure like you know you're just you're not in the upper echelon and then of course there's the ranking of Universities Ivy League R One R Two I mean it's like endless right? So even though I knew I had been outside academia, and I knew that that was just a pile of.
15:26.30
jellyfishind
Right.
15:36.31
Audrey Mayer
Bs like you know, like for like a thousand reasons none of that is true I still had that internal conversation with myself like you're not a failure like just because you're abandoning a tenured full professor post and just you know like you haven't failed. This isn't like a crisis. You know you're just your career is taking on a new phase and it's fine and it's just as valuable and productive and I tell you I mean in my office I'm surrounded by brilliant people. You know, ah, this idea that.
15:58.97
jellyfishind
Um, yeah.
16:12.53
Audrey Mayer
All the brilliant people are in academia and then there's everyone else is totally false. So I mean it only took me a month or 2 in my current position where I'm like oh right? Yeah, no, not a failure like you know, but there was that sort of butterflies in the stomach like oh wow am I really doing this.
16:31.25
Audrey Mayer
And have I just failed at Academia like I had to talk myself out of that conversation and it's rough.
16:32.36
jellyfishind
Yeah. How? yeah I bet how long do you think you were sort of wrestling with this idea of leaving.
16:46.19
Audrey Mayer
Ah, yeah, I'd say those like final two or three years and I did a lot of stuff in those two or three years where I was really trying to do different things to try to get more comfortable so I took part of my position. Um i. Put into the provost office doing diversity equity and inclusion work I thought you know maybe if I work to make this a better more hospitable place. It will make me feel more comfortable. Um I ended up as ah, an interim vice president for four months again vice president for diversity. Um, thinking like maybe I'll try this on while we you know hire the permanent person. Um, so I was trying a lot of different things in academia to see if I could you know find a place that felt better and it just didn't. And so that whole last year in particular when I got onto the job market I did apply to a couple of academic positions but those were only in places like I like Chicago like I really wanted to move back to Chicago so I applied a couple you know and that that metropolis in that whole area. Um. But most of the jobs were federal I mean I just I kind of knew I was like it might be better academia might be better if I lived in a place I loved but what if is not better enough. Fuck still feel like the water's getting hotter and hotter. Um.
18:04.55
jellyfishind
Um, yeah.
18:21.81
Audrey Mayer
Yeah, so I Just you know I started doing interviews for federal positions I was like yup this is where this is where I should be. It's just it really isn't academia.
18:33.81
jellyfishind
And it sounds like well I mean you've already sort of covered a little bit a lot of yours fears about leaving academia but like what sort of or what other sort of fears and uncertainties did you have about you know about working for the Epa again or. Moving to a different city or any of it really.
18:55.80
Audrey Mayer
Oh well. Yeah I guess I didn't really have any fears. Well there was one I did I did apply and get an interview for and nrcs um, and I kind of knew going in I was like i. I don't have any farm or egg experience I think like I mean they do forests as well. But that was pretty far outside my area and I was like even with the interview questions up'm thinking like I'm not going to do well in this job. You know I don't know why. Got an interview but I was not offered the position I mean it was just it was pretty clear to both of us I'm sure like 5 minutes in that it's like oh no nope um, so I didn't fear. There wasn't any fear. The biggest hesitation was yeah so my son had. You know I mean he spent his first year in Finland which he doesn't remember and then all the rest of his years in the upper peninsula Michigan and so this was a big move for a 13 year old to the northeast where we had never lived. He had never been I mean. When we moved there like I had only been to Massachusetts I had never been to Maine New Hampshire Vermont yeah like Connecticut I mean like there was a huge hole in me. Not even being there. Um, and so I would say all of my fears were around. Moving him and I to a place where we didn't really know anybody and we had never lived and it was quite different. Culturally um yeah, and I was nervous. you know I was like you know he's like 13 what if he doesn't make friends like what if he hates his school. Um. And it was still kind of like raging pandemic and I thought like what if he has to do another year for remote school I mean like seventh grade was awful. It was remote and it was just awful. You know I was like.
20:53.45
jellyfishind
Yeah.
20:56.79
Audrey Mayer
What if that's still going on and now he's in a new place and he can't even meet kids because of the stupid pandemic right.
21:02.15
jellyfishind
Um, so what was your conversation with your son like around this potential move.
21:10.63
Audrey Mayer
So we talked about positives and negatives and he wasn't really happy in the UP either so he definitely wanted to move but his preference was to move into like Southern Wisconsin or Chicago where our family is where he had been.
21:29.40
jellyfishind
Yeah.
21:29.60
Audrey Mayer
over and over. and over you know he's really familiar with that area. Um, but the big selling point for him was the sheer number of hockey programs here in the northeast, especially new England like there weren't a lot of programs in the U P and so um he didn't have a whole lot of choices. Um, there was like a he plays goalies so there was like a surplus of goalies and so there was really super competitive slots for travel teams and whatever and um, so that was a big selling point for him and that actually that. Grease the wheels for him big time there turns out to be like a shortage of goalies here which I don't can't even get my mind around so he's just invited onto teams like all the time because I need a goalie and so that's great for him. He meets a ton of kids. He's got a really good group of friends. Not all of them play hockey but a lot of them do um and it just got him into the social scene really fast. So that was yeah so for him, it's it has been a good move. Um, he does miss the Midwest.
22:34.58
jellyfishind
That's amazing.
22:42.79
Audrey Mayer
Um, but um, yeah, it's been good for him So All of those huge fears like the disasterizing I was doing um and then the pandemic sort of you know we got through the blast hurdle and then the vaccines came out like you know so that whole. Context changed and so he was able to go to school like and you know like normal like he was doing before and um, yeah, So I think helping him get back to a sense of normal that has been helpful and in a way that that.
23:16.10
jellyfishind
Yeah.
23:20.40
Audrey Mayer
Weird You know Pre-vaccine Pandemic time in the year before we left probably made the move a little bit easier right? because it was just so horrible like such a awful time that this feels a lot better.
23:30.98
jellyfishind
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. So why I'm glad that he's thriving so much. First of all, that's awesome. What is his name I'm sorry I didn't ask Lucas. Okay, so.
23:46.37
Audrey Mayer
His name's Lucas yeah, it's funny I wanted a name that wasn't weird but wouldn't be too common Lucas is he has a lucas in every single class. He has ah always a lucas on his hockey team like.
23:58.92
jellyfishind
Wow.
24:02.79
Audrey Mayer
I don't understand why that name became so popular but he's you know it's like yeah like Christopher or Jennifer of our era like here's just like dozens floating around the school. Why I don't know anyway, yeah.
24:13.21
jellyfishind
That's so interesting. Wow I I knew when Luke is growing up. That's it no wasn't coming. No so interesting.
24:21.19
Audrey Mayer
Yeah, it wasn't common when we were growing up but now it's just half the boys are named Lucas I don't get it.
24:30.14
jellyfishind
Names are weird. Um, but I'm glad that Lucas is thriving over over there. Um, what what it what has it been like for you to sort of I don't know to like to meet people and create a new social life.
24:36.30
Audrey Mayer
Yep.
24:45.51
jellyfishind
In your late 40 s in a new city. You've never lived in that must be hard.
24:46.38
Audrey Mayer
Yeah, yeah, it is and I have to be honest I really have not been doing much of that at All. So My socializing is really pretty much limited to the hockey parents and to the people at work and I should be better I mean. Part of it too. It's the pandemic like it just um, you know there was so indoor dining was closed for what so we moved here they had closed down indoor dining. There was like mask mandates there were capat I mean it. It's not been a great time for basically anybody to Socialize. You know what? I'm saying. Um, yeah.
25:22.96
jellyfishind
Yeah, that's true. That's it's extra hard to make friends right now that's for certain are you do you like? are you typically like an extroverted person or an introverted person. Do you would you say.
25:29.39
Audrey Mayer
Yeah, ah yeah.
25:38.63
Audrey Mayer
That's hard to say um, probably lean towards introvert but not all the time. Um I will say the biggest bummer for me, you know, talking about social lives so back in in the UP in Michigan.
25:44.90
jellyfishind
Ms.
25:54.47
Audrey Mayer
I Had a great social life. But then everybody moved away like because and I knew all of them through they were all faculty and they all just couldn't stand the University or the area and they moved away and every and we'd even.
25:56.82
jellyfishind
Oh.
26:11.33
Audrey Mayer
You know, a lot of them moved to the pacific northwest oddly enough. So my son and I did like this big circle through like Washington State and camloops and Vancouver and saw a bunch people and um and they're all like when are you going to leave like when are you to find a new job and. I didn't like it there either but it never occurred to me that everybody would just you know and louise left too right? I mean so I had a really great social life and then they all I think was like 2012 they all just left like the whole social my whole like crew was just gone.
26:43.10
jellyfishind
Huh That's so interesting.
26:48.85
Audrey Mayer
So and I you know and I had a couple of people left. But after that I was like why bother? you know the turnover was so high and that's academia like that too. I mean people are leaving for different places and you know and it's like. Yeah, you kind of feel like you're in the military you know like why bother making good friends if everybody's just going to move on I know it sounds terrible. Um, yeah, yeah.
27:07.51
jellyfishind
Ah, it is it is harder. It is harder as an adult. First of all, it's harder as an adult just to make friends. But you're right then people do leave and it's always hard and sad and I'm I've moved around a lot too.
27:21.92
Audrey Mayer
Yeah.
27:26.69
jellyfishind
And yet I get I start to like stress out when I have friends um, who are telling me that like oh I might move to California or wherever I like stress out I'm like you can't leave me and then I think like I leave ever I like always leave I don't always leave but I have left right right.
27:33.41
Audrey Mayer
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure I'm guilty too right? I'm not saying I'm innocent in that whole like friend Churn Um, but it's a bummer. Yeah, and so.
27:45.84
jellyfishind
Right? It's hard. It's a bummer.
27:52.13
Audrey Mayer
Yeah, so I'm right I mean once my son you know gets situated and we're all situated. You know I'm I'm definitely going to I don't know where I'm going to start. But yeah, start making friends and you know I mean I know how to do it I've done it before. Ah.
28:04.31
jellyfishind
Yeah, wait how long. Ah.
28:11.18
Audrey Mayer
Just start over. Yeah, just about a year well no ah scratch that so I started my job about a year ago but last summer when we didn't move here until August and it was because of the housing market was.
28:11.96
jellyfishind
How long have you been there now.
28:30.95
Audrey Mayer
Nuts I could not close on a house to save my life. Um, so we yeah so we basically and that didn't really help with the transition either. We lived in my parents' basement for like six weeks in the summer and I was working remotely as was everybody else so that was no different.
28:42.89
jellyfishind
No, it's hard.
28:50.15
Audrey Mayer
Um, but we were basically homeless for like 6 or eight weeks last summer waiting for the house to close and all that stuff. Um, so we have been here since August so it's been about nine or ten months maybe somewhere around there. Yeah so far. Yeah I mean it's.
29:01.37
jellyfishind
Okay, okay, any like it.
29:10.25
Audrey Mayer
It's civilization which was my you know my primary motivation because there's nothing in the U p There's few people and no I mean if there's something you need you have to ship it basically um and the few stores we did have like they'd keep.
29:22.69
jellyfishind
Wow.
29:27.95
Audrey Mayer
Closing down so I don't know if you've ah, do you know Shopco probably not. It's like this Wisconsin it's kind of like target but maybe in that genre of department store type places. Um and it was that or Walmart.
29:30.14
jellyfishind
Um, now.
29:38.71
jellyfishind
Oh.
29:46.47
Audrey Mayer
And then Shopco like went bankrupt and closed and then it was and we had a totally dead mall like there was nothing in there and you know literally I was just buying everything online and I just I was like I would love to live in a place where I could just go to Petsmart.
29:47.74
jellyfishind
I.
30:04.32
Audrey Mayer
And just buy some stinking food. You know for my cats and not have to like navigate chewy dot com and all this other crazy stuff. Um, so I like it because it's so Concord is I don't know it's probably 50000 people so it's a decent size town. And then Manchester is only 20 minutes and that's got like 100000 people and then Boston is about an hour away um so I feel like we're back in civilization. Yeah, like there's people and things to do and.
30:31.19
jellyfishind
Yeah, yeah.
30:36.44
Audrey Mayer
You know it doesn't it's not a 6 hour drive to the closest city and all that nonsense. So.
30:39.93
jellyfishind
Um, yeah, um I Want to talk a little bit about um I know you have strong opinions about sort of college and undergrad and the college systems and how they're set up and I I know obviously this is a podcast about like.
30:59.81
Audrey Mayer
Yeah.
30:59.89
jellyfishind
Ah, second part of life. But I do think that it's relative and I think it's kind of important and it was interesting when we were talking over the phone about it so I wanted to address it. Um, because I I think how we approach and experience undergrad often and obviously directly feeds into. All the other choices that we make about how we live as ah as adults and what sort of societal Rules. We abide by and what boxes we feel like we need to stay in and which boxes we feel Comfortable. You know, moving out of um and I sort of think that if we.
31:23.61
Audrey Mayer
Yup.
31:36.62
jellyfishind
Maybe if we better address how we approach college and experience college that we might be more equipped to handle whatever comes later in life and obviously isn't that what college is for um, but I feel like so many people and myself included sort of just muscle through undergrad. Um without.
31:45.80
Audrey Mayer
Yeah.
31:55.71
jellyfishind
Really much direction or you know knowing why we're there or what we want to do after? Um,, there's just there's so much like pressure to you know graduate high school go to college graduate college and 4 years get a job get married have. You know a house and babies and a dog or whatever and it's all Connected. So I just I wanted to know I don't know I want to know more about what your opinions are about that because I know you have strong ones.
32:25.12
Audrey Mayer
Yeah, yeah, so you just covered like ah a lot of ground. So yeah, no, that's fine. So first let me acknowledge that it is true that people with a bachelor's degree end up earning more over their lifetimes than people with a high school diploma.
32:30.81
jellyfishind
Sorry.
32:44.71
Audrey Mayer
Like bachelor's degrees are very helpful. That said I find it extremely unhelpful to go right into college from high school when you have no idea what even what your major is let alone what you want to do in life and accumulate like. Tens of thousands of dollars of debt that then sort of require you to take jobs for the paycheck instead of because it's something you're interested in. Um I'm just really unhappy with that whole situation I think it's awful. And you know back like in my parents' time right? The boomers like colleges were supported by the state like really heavily subsidized and so people came you know you could put yourself through college with a part-time job which is like not how it is now right.
33:38.83
jellyfishind
Um, right.
33:43.67
Audrey Mayer
And so you know in previous generations when it was like that. Absolutely you could go into college and like find out who you are you know like take a lot of classes and change your majors and. Learn. You know, critical thinking and a love of lifelong learning all that really idealistic stuff that is true all of that is true for college however like in our current situation where college is. Ridiculously expensive and people are taking out massive loans when they're like 18 years old is just not sustainable. It's not good and the only people I can advocate for going down that path are people who like me like. I know I want to be an ecologist like this is this is my major I'm positive of it I know I want to do it and I went into college thinking that and I came out of college you know with a well biology degree but you know ecology. Um, then. By all means go for it and I came out of college with a lot of debt you know and as right as you pointed out like then that that starting at the Epa was really attractive because I could pay off my student loans on that salary. You know I actually did a brief postdoc at the University Of Cincinnati like for eighteen months and I think my paycheck was like twenty five thousand a year and this was 2000 it was like I yeah I lived in this like shotgun Kentucky house rental that.
35:12.56
jellyfishind
Oh my God wow.
35:22.99
Audrey Mayer
Did not even have a fridge or a stove like it had a hot water heater and even that broke like six months in you know what? I'm saying like so like super poverty wages so that Epa job allowed me to completely change.
35:30.66
jellyfishind
File.
35:42.44
Audrey Mayer
My financial situation and open up all sorts of options right? and not all jobs that that people get do that and if you've got a ton of student loans. You are. You're like handcuffed to those things so you know for people. Who aren't really sure what they want to do I'm a huge fan of just getting a job after high school and working a couple of years and you know try out a couple of jobs or even just you know work. Those. Jobs and then you just get so fed up. You're like yup I'm ready to go to college and like sit to class and learn um or join the military or you know go to community college first or you know don't jump right into. Like 25 grand a year in loans when you're not really sure what you're going to do with it. Um, and you know and so right as a professor that was get that was really bumming me out too that I had a significant portion of my students who just did not seem really engaged. With the material and I kept thinking like you're paying a lot of money to like either sit in this chair or not come to class at all this surely There's a better use of your time you should be making money instead of spending it. You know. Um, and so that kind of crushed me a bit too I felt like I was part of this machine of just like sucking in these 18 year olds and saddling them with a bunch of debt before they really knew what they wanted to do with life. So I'm a you know I'm a big supporter of higher ed. And that's not it at all. But I am not a supporter of this right? graduate high school. Go right into college. You know all the college grads have been told. There's like this 6 figure job hanging out for them at the like. And we're in a really good labor market right now and there's still not six figure jobs you know, um and then right and just marching down that path and that path is good for some people but it's I would say it's not good even for the majority of people.
37:43.78
jellyfishind
Um, yeah.
37:55.53
jellyfishind
Yeah, which is ah well, it's not the only reason why we're here but like it's one of the reasons why you know we're here talking why I'm here doing this because I think a lot of people do merge down that path and then at some point are like.
38:06.47
Audrey Mayer
Yeah.
38:13.59
jellyfishind
I Don't like this path like this is not what I thought it was going to be or this is wasn't my choice. This was somebody else telling me I'm supposed to do this and I listened or whatever and so now here we are trying to figure something else out and maybe that would happen anyway. But I don't know maybe not.
38:13.98
Audrey Mayer
The hit.
38:29.55
Audrey Mayer
Yeah, and yeah and I I mean I would never say that that path is what leads people to completely shift Careers Midlife because Midlife career shift is really common and it happens for all sorts of reasons and.
38:32.64
jellyfishind
It's connected.
38:48.39
Audrey Mayer
You know people go into college loving what they're doing and they do it for 20 years and then they're like you know what I want to do that thing over there and that's totally fine too. Um, so you know I'm not saying go into college and then stick with that thing forever. Um, but I just think you know man it's 17 or 18 or even 22 like I'm not sure a whole lot of people have a good grasp of what it is. They want to dedicate their brains to for 4 years you know um yeah yeah, and that's yeah, that's really common.
39:16.79
jellyfishind
Yeah, yeah I agree I Definitely did not have any idea. Yeah.
39:27.16
Audrey Mayer
Um, and I think it's totally fine. You know that some people just need to take more time and have more experiences to figure out what it is. They're passionate about or what it is. They will be passionate about for the next Decade or two you know at least for that career number 1
39:28.48
jellyfishind
Yeah.
39:41.00
jellyfishind
Right.
39:46.30
Audrey Mayer
Before they hit their 40 s and they're like okay time for career number 2 But yeah.
39:47.92
jellyfishind
Um, okay, ready for cure. Um, yeah, yeah, exactly Um, what kind of an example, Do you hope that you're giving to your son.
40:00.84
Audrey Mayer
Um, Well, we've already had the talk that I don't expect him to go right into college from high school. Um and he's you know, talking about things like he you know he's thinking like he might like to be a mechanic and. I So I was like sure you know and even his high school has like you know Auto shop and stuff like that where he can start learning about cars. Um, so yeah, he's you know he's one of those kids I can just tell like his.
40:20.83
jellyfishind
Again.
40:35.89
Audrey Mayer
I mean other than to be a hockey player professional hockey. Okay, so that's we that's rote like that's red all kids who play hockey want to go to the and Nhl but you know should that not pan out. Let's think about other options. Ah and it pans out.
40:46.52
jellyfishind
Ah.
40:54.51
Audrey Mayer
Very rarely. Um, but yeah, he kind of bounces around you know he'll like see see a movie or he'll have some experience and he'll be like yeah I think I want to do that. Um, and I could see him kind of bouncing around in his interests. Well into his early 20 s you know? and so I've been really clearer to him like I don't expect you to just go into college right? after high school. Um, you know if you want to go to technical school. You want to be a mechanic for a while. Go for it. You know or maybe your whole life. You know like he watched what is that. Gotham Garage or something where they take cars and oh yeah, like build them into crazy. Yeah, that one so he really likes shows like that and you know I can he said like that seems like a really cool Job. You know? yeah like.
41:34.72
jellyfishind
Oh I Do know what you're talking about they I Yes I know exactly you're doing that. Ah.
41:46.58
jellyfishind
Um, cool.
41:51.19
Audrey Mayer
Ah, Prius and like turn it into a hot rod or whatever. Um, yeah, and so that's my biggest message to him and I don't know that I've necessarily set that example for him. But I guess I wanted to counteract the example I'm setting because I did I just went right from. High school to college to grad school to you know postdoc like um and I ah yeah I just want him to understand that. That's not the path I expect him to take you know I think so um, it's hard to know.
42:19.82
jellyfishind
Um, yeah, and do you think he gets that.
42:28.73
jellyfishind
No.
42:30.37
Audrey Mayer
Like fourteen year olds are they're very mysterious and mercurial. He probably gets it sometimes um yeah, and so I think um, but you know so my parents have they all went through this like midlife.
42:36.39
jellyfishind
Yeah.
42:48.83
Audrey Mayer
Career number 2 shift and you know so he has grandparents who yeah who have done different things at different stages of their lives. Um, so well I guess my dad's the exception so he was a real estate agent.
42:49.44
jellyfishind
Oh really.
42:55.81
jellyfishind
Um, what did your parents do.
43:07.24
Audrey Mayer
Um, my step dad. Well so the reason why I was excited to work for the Epa is actually my stepdad um worked for the Epa when I was in high school and he's an organic chemist. Um, but he ah changed. Over to like um, organic agriculture like pesticides and herbicides so his entire house and trucks smell like garlic because that's like the pace component of most of the stuff that he makes in cells. Um it is a very.
43:40.98
jellyfishind
Amazing. Ah.
43:45.61
Audrey Mayer
It's a potent everything right from like pests to people to vampires it wards them all off, Um, okay, but you know what I'm saying like you. So yeah, it's pretty potent stuff. Um, and then.
43:51.17
jellyfishind
Yeah, set me I love I love it on eat Ru are like yeah it's phone so allium.
44:04.18
Audrey Mayer
Yeah, and so you know my mom so his grandma she um, actually yeah in undergrad. She was a ah foreign languages major and then she went into um nutrition and then she ended up working in the pharmaceutical industry.
44:22.60
jellyfishind
Wow.
44:24.16
Audrey Mayer
Um, and so yeah, and so she's and then in the pharmaceutical industry. She sort of switched all over the place to what she was doing. Um, So yeah I think you know he's He's kind of surrounded by adults that have shifted. Um, careers or like me like you know they're in the same field but they've gone into a different sector. Um, and so I think he sees that a lot and and so that ah that part isn't very strange to him I think.
44:49.40
jellyfishind
Yeah.
44:57.18
jellyfishind
Yeah, um, well I wish you all the luck in the world out in New Hampshire I'm so um I feel like I want you to come back and tell me about how your social life is going once you make an effort.
45:12.25
Audrey Mayer
Oh yeah, yeah, that will that will be interesting. Um, yeah I'm just you know like everybody I'm just waiting for this pandemic to just end or become the common flu or whatever you know the.
45:22.19
jellyfishind
Yeah.
45:31.40
Audrey Mayer
The new normal I'm just waiting for the new normal to like yeah to kick in and then yeah, um, right like everybody. So.
45:32.86
jellyfishind
Um, kick in. Yeah, that's hard. Yeah I mean I don't know some you some people have already been like what are you talking about? we're we're in it.
45:47.67
Audrey Mayer
Of course no I know well that's part of the weirdness right? is we can't even agree if we if we're there yet? Um, but I just um, I'm sure I'm one of many many adults who just you know had their social lives complete. Upended or turned around or reconfigured and we're all just sort of like discombobulated at the moment and trying to figure out you know, right? like all that free time I'm supposed to have to socialize Anyway, you know which is kind of a joke. But. Just trying to figure out like okay and there are so many landmines too. You know I mean even you know with the hockey parents like there's well vaccines and masks and politics and you know like socializing. It's hard to meet new people because there's a lot of um.
46:34.89
jellyfishind
Out that oh my god.
46:43.75
Audrey Mayer
Triggers for folks out there that ah just wanted. Yeah anyway, yup.
46:44.85
jellyfishind
Yeah, yeah, cut Sir it? Yeah, ah yeah, it's hard. Um, well I Really appreciate you coming here. Thank you so much for talking to me and telling me your story and about your son and I'm excited to.
47:03.60
Audrey Mayer
Yeah, thanks. Thanks! Yeah I Hope we get a chance to talk again soon.
47:03.43
jellyfishind
More about how it goes I Really appreciate it.